Sorcery... Split Flaws???

[Ogrelord]

If I wanted to make a ritualistic sorcerer that could do some spells once per day, and others at will, how could I split the flaws up?

For example, I want to be able to drain, turn incorporeal, and put up a force field at will, but I only need to fly and turn invisible once per day. How should I handle the flaws for this? Should I just buy Sorcery twice, with different flaws and extras? Or, could I just specify that some the use flaw only applies to certain spells?

[Webhead]

Kinda tough call, but I would buy the powers that you want to use as extras of sorcery, give them the appropriate Uses flaw and that should settle things fairly well. It will mean extra spells, so effectively it would be more costly, but that's what I think I would do. Hope that helps some.

[bushido11]

In a case like that, buy the powers you want with limited uses as seperate powers rather than linking them to sorcery. It's way less of a hassle and you don't have to do any guesswork since you know how to place pp values on such powers.

[Ogrelord]

Well, there are two problems with that solution. First, I want to cast them. Easily fixed with some descriptive flavor, but still. Second, I don't want to pay for each power individually, because the ranks in each power would be very low.

[bushido11]

I don't know what to tell you. In M&M, you can only add so many flaws to a power before adding any more wouldn't affect the cost. That's the problem with the +1/-1 per rank approach of extras and flaws, rather than multiplying/dividing the base pp cost of the power.

[Ogrelord]

So, what you're saying is that I could apply the use flaw to each effect and gain the benefit of flawing each effect as if it were a different power? Ok, perhaps, but that would mean that it would be really easy to knock sorcery down to a 1pp/rank cost. It would also mean that sorcery is really easy to beef up with extras.

Still, it's not that I'm looking for points. I would apply fifty flaws to a power if it fit my character concept.

[Lord Ichor]

In a case like that, buy the powers you want with limited uses as separate powers rather than linking them to sorcery. It's way less of a hassle and you don't have to do any guesswork since you know how to place pp values on such powers.

BTW, Sorcery as it stands today can do this, chose Drain, Incorporeal, Force Field, Flight and Invisibility and place the Flaw: Restricted-Transportation and Illusion powers are useable only once a day on the power.

[Ogrelord]

Well, I'm not sure how appropriate the restricted flaw would be to something like this. Taking something down to one use per day counts as four "use" flaws. Are you actually saying that the inability to cast spells more than once per day would only count as a one-flaw restriction? That sounds extremely harsh.

[Quantum]

I'd create your ritual magic in a new power called Sorceror's Rituals with the uses flaw and make another called Sorceror's Spells that they can use at any time. Be easier to keep track of stuff and they're custom made for your use.

[Lord Ichor]

Well, I'm not sure how appropriate the restricted flaw would be to something like this. Taking something down to one use per day counts as four "use" flaws.

It is very obvious from the wording of your post that this is about the points and not the idea. More front loading. Just kidding I understand you brought this up as an intellectual curiosity and that it is. In that spirit read on....

Are you actually saying that the inability to cast spells more than once per day would only count as a one-flaw restriction? That sounds extremely harsh.

No that’s exactly not what I'm saying. If you did restrict your sorcery power to only once a day then it would be worth the four points of Flaws.

However your not restricting your sorcery power to only once a day. You are restricting two of the effects of the Sorcery power to once a day, this is very different. In the example I gave I would probably make it worth two Flaws. That makes Sorcery a five point power. Very good I think.

This discussion is additionally complicated because sorcery is a uniquely structured power.

Alternatively you could make a new power using the creation rules (actually suggested under the Sorcery power for cases like this. You could then Flaw the power accordingly).

As I see it, you don't do what you are trying to do with Sorcery (or Cosmic Power). It is a special construct (rules mechanics wise) and very open to abuse once you start mucking around with it. I can't see any good reason to do what you suggest, other then shaving points? I can accept that this is the way you saw your Spell Caster. Unfortunately if I was your GM (or if I was creating this NPC) I would be strict about this. It’s a very problematic situation. Which is I believe exactly why you brought this up, so we could have a yarn about it. Thanks because its intriguing and stimulating.

The real problem comes as an artefact of the system design that predicates a particular paradigm. ie Extras and flaws are applied to the power not other extras or flaws. The only semi-exception I see to this is the Restricted Flaw, which can limit an aspect of the power or an extra, but not flaws.

So the short answer is that I don’t think you can do what you are trying to do under the system. I don’t think its built to do it. Is that bad? Maybe, but what I think you will find is that it has lot of ‘travel” before it does breakdown making it a pretty good system under most normal circumstances.

[Quantum]

It's easier to break the powers up. Create each power you want with the extras and flaws with -1 to thier cost. Total them up and add 1 to the cost/rank. Keep notes of what flaws/extras go where and BOOM, done.

Of course, your GM should help you do it if allowed at all.

[Lord Ichor]

It's easier to break the powers up. Create each power you want with the extras and flaws with -1 to thier cost. Total them up and add 1 to the cost/rank. Keep notes of what flaws/extras go where and BOOM, done.

Of course, your GM should help you do it if allowed at all.

Only apparently that isn't how it works? Flaws work on the Power and all the Extra powers likewise. AFAIK. Dont they? So you cant do it that way, I was lead to believe. I could be wrong.

[Tesuji]

buy your sorcery normally for splls that are routinely castable. if entire groups do not git this bill, take the excluded groups flaws.

then buy the powers you want as rituals outside sorcery as individual powers with whatever uses flaws and slow/ritual flaws you deem appropriate.

You will run into the minimum 1 pp per rank for new power rather quickly depending on how elaborate the powers in the rituals are. with very limited uses, you should be able to make the rituals quite potent with extras for range, inobvious or what have you and still get them down to the 1 pppr levels..

my preferred implementation for ritual magic is to leave it outside the accounting as an FX of occult SKILLS, but thats just me.

[Ogrelord]

"As I see it, you don't do what you are trying to do with Sorcery (or Cosmic Power). It is a special construct (rules mechanics wise) and very open to abuse once you start mucking around with it. I can't see any good reason to do what you suggest, other then shaving points? I can accept that this is the way you saw your Spell Caster. Unfortunately if I was your GM (or if I was creating this NPC) I would be strict about this. It’s a very problematic situation. Which is I believe exactly why you brought this up, so we could have a yarn about it. Thanks because its intriguing and stimulating. "
Ok, this may or may not convice you of my true stance, but, actually, the reason for this has little to do with numbers. I want to create Ogrelord character as a hero in M&M. Ogrelord is based upon a creature in D&D that is called an Ogremage. The Ogremage has several abilities that he can use once per day, and several that he can use at will, and that is how I determined that my game was in jeopardy. Again, and I appreciate the thought that you put into it, but I digress, I do not like your idea.

The way I'm reading your suggestion, Tesuji, is that I should basically buy sorcery twice? That works well, but, is it allowed?

[Lord Ichor]

Again, and I appreciate the thought that you put into it, but I digress, I do not like your idea.

Ahhh agreement finally.

If you are trying to model an Ogremage I can see where your problem comes from. Porting over like this doesn’t work so well.

I would probably go for "style' over "substance" in this case.

Tesuji's suggestion is a good one. Maybe use that?

[Ogrelord]

I'm glad we could work this out. I think I will go with Tetsuji's idea.