bard songs tweak

[shonuff]

I would rule that a bard maintaining a song could not backstab, as you cannot stealthily sing. Furthermore, they cannot Bluff and sing, as both are minor actions. So, IMHO, a bards give up most of their combat functionality for some pretty crappy songs... +1 to attack. Yay.

How about tying bard songs to the Music talent (and increasing the strength of Song of Valor and Song of Captivation)?

Song of Valor:
At novice -- Song of Valor increases attack, damage, and defense +1.
At journeyman -- Song of Valor increases attack, damage, and defense +2.
At master -- Song of Valor increases attack, damage, and defense +3.

Song of Friendship:
At novice -- Song of Friendship increases Communication tests by +1.
At journeyman -- Song of Friendship increases Communication tests by +2.
At master -- Song of Friendship increases Communication tests by +3.

Song of Captivation:
At novice -- Song of Captivation is Communication (Performance) vs. Willpower (Self-Discipline).
At journeyman -- Song of Captivation is Communication (Performance) +1 vs. Willpower (Self-Discipline).
At master -- Song of Captivation is Communication (Performance) +2 vs. Willpower (Self-Discipline).

Edited: Re-read Song of Captivation, and it's not as I initially interpreted. I think the song can be maintained for 1 minor action, so it would not be 1 major action to cancel an enemy's actions. So I erased the duration.

[Siroh]

Of course what I'm about to say is open to interpretation, but there is no reason you can't sing and Bluff in the same round. They are both minor actions and you are allowed to have a major and minor action OR two minor actions per round. Whether it's useful or not is related to whether the GM allows the convention that since you succeeded at Bluff, the opponent, if next to you at the start of your next turn is still "wrong footed" and ripe for the plus to hit and extra damage.

[shonuff]

That's a possible fix for backstab, but that actually leaves the bard doing less damage overall. The bard would only attack 1/2 turns, generating fewer SP and doing d6 damage instead of normal attack damage.

Couple this with a bard having as requirements 2 primary abilities, a (mechanically) useless talent,and a combat-useless focus (either performance or musical lore). I understand and agree with the requirements in theory, but in practice I feel that they leave the bard grossly out of balance with the other rogue specializations.

[Loswaith]

Well the Bard realy isnt the combat specialisation the other two are. If you take a look at them there is the Dualist, a pure combat specialisation, and the assassin a combat/precision specialisation, so it kind of makes sence the bard, a non-combat based specialisation isnt going to be as good combat wise as the others.

[Raphaquina]

Or you could put on Journeyman rank the following: Once per encounter, you can use Bluff as a free action.

That way the bard can get a bit of combat feel on the right way: via deception. (And on the DA way, since they are spies )

Or the bard could use Bluff as a free action twice per encounter, since it's a minor action. (Assassins can use Dirty Fighting as free once per encounter, but it's a Major Action)

[shonuff]

Well the Bard realy isnt the combat specialisation the other two are. If you take a look at them there is the Dualist, a pure combat specialisation, and the assassin a combat/precision specialisation, so it kind of makes sence the bard, a non-combat based specialisation isnt going to be as good combat wise as the others.

Which is fine... except the bard isn't really good at that, either. I'm fine with a bard having to make choices between bard abilties and backstabbing, but the bard combat abilities are weak sauce. +1 to attack? Hitting isn't a problem.

Or you could put on Journeyman rank the following: Once per encounter, you can use Bluff as a free action.

That way the bard can get a bit of combat feel on the right way: via deception. (And on the DA way, since they are spies )

Or the bard could use Bluff as a free action twice per encounter, since it's a minor action. (Assassins can use Dirty Fighting as free once per encounter, but it's a Major Action)

I don't think so. If a bard's singing, I have an issue with them backstabbing. Also, I think the goal should be to allow them to be played differently than a duelist/assassin... but they should be relatively equivalent in helping out.

Assassins/duelists = direct dimage
bard = indirect damage

[Raphaquina]

Well, I must say I don't like singing bards. I prefer tehy dancing or playing a instrument. But well, while singing/dancing/playing he can Bluff with a deceptive fighting style flavor, trying to distract his target.

Anyway, I just came up with another suggestion if any bard player is feeling underpowered and bored.

[shonuff]

"Air-kick with bells on the shoes" is a minor action, giving stunt points, perhaps?

[Koeran]

Personally I don't like the Bard Talents at all (The RAW that is). They are based off the computer game, so I can see why they created them that way, but to me they just seem like a clone of D&D Bards.

D&D Bards are actually Arcane Spellcasters. They're Mages. They weave magic into their songs, which is why they can achieve such funky magical effects with them. If the current Bard Specialisation was a Mage Specialisation instead of a Rogue one, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But Dragon Age Bards are Rogues. And in the lore, they're spies, who occasionally dabble in sabotage and assassination. Yet none of their specialisation reflects this. It's all overt manipulation of a situation with music, most of it being direct combat. There's nothing covert about them.

I do think that their specialisation should have something musical about it (Because Bards are supposed to be exceptionally musically talented. Anyone can take the music talent, but only Bards are Bards), but there needs to be something that's about spying. Song of Friendship kinda does this. But to me Bards use their musical talents to give them the access they need to do their job. They don't use their musical talents to actually do it.

[Crazydwarf]

I'm inclined to agree that the existing Bard spec. Is severly underpowered for such a combat oriented game.
I like the new versions here much better, except song of captivation wich I think seem strangely magical for something as mundande as music. + the fact that it operates much in the same way Paralyze and Horror spells.
I'd like to see it completly discarded and replaced, but with what I do not know.

[Elfie]

I'm inclined to agree that the existing Bard spec. Is severly underpowered for such a combat oriented game.

I strongly disagree with that. It's only a combat-oriented game if that's how you run it. In a usual six-hour session, we have at most two combats, usually one, often none.

[Admiral Yacob]

I'm inclined to agree that the existing Bard spec. Is severly underpowered for such a combat oriented game.

I strongly disagree with that. It's only a combat-oriented game if that's how you run it. In a usual six-hour session, we have at most two combats, usually one, often none.

My group is the same (and I run the pre-written adventures). We are rare to have multiple combats in a session and my group loves the roleplay and exploration parts of the game quite a bit.

[shonuff]

Frequency of combat is up to individual GMs, and even dependent on particular quests or quest-lines. I am more concerned with (imo) the ballance of the specializations. While bards are more of a support/non-combat specialization, I don't think the present abilities do anything.

The +1 to attack buff is almost irrelevant, and hurts the bard's rogue abilities... either not being able to backstab, or only being able to attack once every two rounds. The song of friendship, imo, doesn't make up for this. While my proposed (eventual) +3 attack/damage/defense may be a little on the strong side, it does require burning an extra two talents in Music, and the bard still wouldn't be able to backstab...

Even with the +3 buff, a master assassin will be averaging 5 damage more than a master bard (of course, other PCs will affect the damage output by both specializations).

My goal is to make bards a viable (if different) specialization in-combat or out of combat, because as is, they are basically just a rogue with a +1 Com.

I'm inclined to agree that the existing Bard spec. Is severly underpowered for such a combat oriented game.
I like the new versions here much better, except song of captivation wich I think seem strangely magical for something as mundande as music. + the fact that it operates much in the same way Paralyze and Horror spells.
I'd like to see it completly discarded and replaced, but with what I do not know.

Yeah, I had the same issue. If it were something described as being a magical ability, I could buy it. But bards aren't magic based. Plus you it's very open to interpretation in its implementation. Does damage disrupt it? I would rule that it would, and then what's the point? Does not being able to take any actions include movement and defense? Iirc, Daze allows for movement. If you cannot defend yourself, how does that affect hitting and damage? Automatic hits and max damage?

Some alternates I've considered were a +2 to lore focus roles that are story/song based. That would encompass each lore focus, but would have to be allowed by the GM... this benefit wouldn't apply to the exact nature of Darkspawn, but might apply to how to bargain with a pride demon.

Another idea would be to give a +2 bonus to performance roles. This might apply to performance, maybe acrobatics, maybe legerdemain, etc.

[Crazydwarf]

I strongly disagree with that. It's only a combat-oriented game if that's how you run it.

Certainly !
Majority of the rules, spells, skills, etc. Though, are combat directed.
There are no specializations or even talents for craftsmen for example, or even other artists like painters.
This makes the Bard the odd man out in a whole bunch of combat oriented spec's.

This is why I say the game is combat oriented, because it's system glosses over non-combat stuff rather readily.

Does damage disrupt it? I would rule that it would, and then what's the point? Does not being able to take any actions include movement and defense? Iirc, Daze allows for movement. If you cannot defend yourself, how does that affect hitting and damage? Automatic hits and max damage?

By the RAW being damaged has no effect on the captivated persons mental status, he would still be listening to the music and not taking any actions.

Not being able to take actions include movement, but not defense.
A completly defenseless target is subject to the "Coup de Grace" rules on p.60
But it's difficult get into such a position as even Paralyze allow for atleast partial defense.

The Daze spell does not allow it's target to move unless he resists the spell.
Much like Paralyze, this spell shuts down it's target completly, but not so severly as the mightier spells.

[shonuff]

Not being able to take actions include movement, but not defense.
A completly defenseless target is subject to the "Coup de Grace" rules on p.60
But it's difficult get into such a position as even Paralyze allow for atleast partial defense.

Aha. Forgot about coup de grace rules. They don't come up very much.

The Daze spell does not allow it's target to move unless he resists the spell.
Much like Paralyze, this spell shuts down it's target completly, but not so severly as the mightier spells.

That's what I might be thinking of, then.

By the RAW being damaged has no effect on the captivated persons mental status, he would still be listening to the music and not taking any actions.

Yeah, however, it's not a magic-based effect, so IMO it shouldn't be as strong as a spell. It's very hard to justify that someone getting hit with a 2-handed axe is going to be entranced by a song.

[Crazydwarf]

I absolutely agree, the effect is wonky in it's basic design.
As I said, I'd like to se it completly replaced, but I'm not infused with enough creativity to do it myself currently
All work and no play makes Crazydwarf a Dulldwarf.

[shonuff]

Right now, I think I'm leading to a path branch. At master bard, you pick if you want to be a knowledge-based bard or a performer.

Lore-based bards would get a +2 to all lore rolls at GM's discretion. These would depend on what the GM would feel would be represented in old folk tales and legends. EG, the bard would most likely not get a Poison Lore bonus to identify the symptons of Adder's Kiss poison, but would get a bonus to identify the antidote of Rare Story Poison used on the Arl of Foreshadowing 500 years ago.

Performance-based bards would get a +2 to entertaining rolls... probably performance, acrobatics, and maybe legerdemain.