Stunts and DA style energy

[Loswaith]

One thing I've been pondering for the most part the stunts take the place of the energy using effects in the computer game and how to use stunts more deliberatly.

One thing I was considering is that every role a character accumulate stunt points to deliberatly use on actions.
So a character gains the dragon die in stunt points on every roll to a pool which they can then choose to use on an action.

Given that stunt points occur in general only around the 30% of the time the actual costs for individual stunts may want to be increased around 2 to 3 times the cost they are now.

Basic rundown:
- Stunt points will begin at 0 starting an encounter (alternately have a few you begin an encounter with too).
- Gain stunt points each round equal to the dragon die result.
- Any round you expend Stunt points you dont gain them.
- Stunts can be purchased at any time provided to can pay the cost in points.
- All other stunt rules for stacking/multiple use apply still.

It's a very rough idea, what do you think?

[Sidmen]

I would advise against giving them access to that many stunt points. 30% of the time you'd be gaining 5-6 stunt points - which is a ton.

Instead, I've given people "floating" stunt points in much smaller quantities. I had considered giving everyone (Constitution) SP at the beginning of each fight, and another SP for each round they didn't speak to eachother out of character. (they only got the SP 1/2 of the time)

Though, I was trying to stop the Metagaming in combat - so you might want to change the qualifier, or even just give them +1SP each turn without a qualifier.

I found that these SP ended up being used sparingly, when they were hurting and NEEDED to disarm that guy for a turn or so.

[Ghostdanser]

I've been considering letting players bank unused stunt points to the tune of 1 per level, with a max of 6.

So at first level you have an encounter and roll doubles with a dragon die of 4, you can spend all 4 stunt points or spend 3 and bank 1, which you hold onto even after the encounter is over. Once the point is used in the future you can bank another point. At second level you can bank 2 points...etc.

Or maybe bank a point every other level so they bank 1 for levels one and two, and 2 for levels three and four, etc.

Not sure if it will unbalance the game, but I figure it might be worth a try.

Note that on a roll of triple 1's I wouldn't allow them to spend a stunt point to save their bacon...you have to have some limits after all.

[Sync]

Yeah, the issue of stunt point acquisition has been on my mind, too...but I hadn't given a lot of time to thinking about how to make it smoother and less destructive to gameplay.

Starting with (CON) SP at the beginning of each battle is fine, maybe give them each 1SP per round of combat afterwards. It's a bit of additional accounting, true, but it stops the huge use of SP by the regular method...something which my players are rather good at.

Maybe: start with CON SP at the beginning of combat, +1SP per round of combat after the first, cap at 6SP, unused SP do NOT carry to the next battle.

This almost mirrors the CRPG: start with WILLPOWER-based pool, limited regeneration to get points back during battle, cannot have more than a fixed amount (based on WILLPOWER). The only difference is that, in the CRPG, you start with a full pool each combat, where here we're not - and I'm fine with that.

This also raises the question of the non-combat stunts: will you then resolve these in the game-engine-supported method (gain SP according to Dragon Dice when you rolls doubles), or will you allow a non-combat SP-pool as well?

[Loswaith]

I would advise against giving them access to that many stunt points. 30% of the time you'd be gaining 5-6 stunt points - which is a ton.
...

True this is why I sugested increasing the costs of stunts too, those 5-6 points dont look like allot when it costs you 6 stunt points to use mighty blow.

...
This also raises the question of the non-combat stunts: will you then resolve these in the game-engine-supported method (gain SP according to Dragon Dice when you rolls doubles), or will you allow a non-combat SP-pool as well?

I dont think its realy needed, most of those stunts tend to be ancillary effects already, a bonus to what you can do. Also the nature of Role-paying with the non-combat stuff tends to have the premis of a character can do anything they like. While combat is often seen as limited to the specific actions available and stunts can appear to be that aspect of things but on a random level.

One way could be to do it is to start a session (or significant time event) with willpower stunt points (or a flat say 3 to remove linking stats) and a player can then decied anytime a stunt roll is indicated to use or save the points. Then at any later time use the stunt points on successful actions, as if they had actually rolled stunt points (potentially limiting expenditure to the dragon die result too).
Their ponts wouldnt refresh till the end of the session where they return to the baseline (whether they are over or under that ammount).

Still not sure if its worth the added complexity at the end of the day however.

[Sync]

Another way to resolve the accumulation and expenditure of stunt points might be to keep the existing system, but rather than say that you get a number of stunt points equal to the Dragon Die, you instead say that you get half the vaule of the Dragon Die, rounded down, with a minimum of 1SP (or even only 1SP) when the attack roll indicates SP would be generated. This value you can either spend or keep, with a cap of 6.

So if you roll doubles on your attack roll and get 5 on the Dragon Die, instead of getting 5 SP to spend immediately, you get 2SP which you can either spend immediately or hold on to to be used when you want/need.

[Zapp]

Well, I understand the "battery" analogy, but I think it leads you down the wrong lane when it comes to saving up stunt points for later. Let me explain...:

You get stunt points rather frequently. Often in cases where you really don't need them. Putting them in the bank then is a no-brainer, meaning the battery will almost always be full.

As such, it actually discourages you from doing cool and whacky stuff when you face weak opposition. Which was not the idea. Dangerous boss fights are exciting enough as they are. It is the run-of-the mill combats that need the spice-that-is-stunts the most! Anything that makes you do less stunts is, put bluntly, not good.

The idea to hand out small numbers of bonus stunt points that players can control themselves is a great idea, don't get me wrong. It is the suggestion to take these from the continuously generated stunt points that I would recommend against.



So why not instead turn the tables: as the Games Master tell your players that when they pull of incredible stunts in innovative ways, and generally impress you and the other players, then they get to refill their "stunt batteries".
- "Wow that's so cool. The hurlocks stand awestruck. I'm giving you two bonus SPs to save!"

This means the opposite of "saving sps for later" - it means spending more now, to spend even more later. Stunts are fun and needs to be encouraged. And the game works best if players don't hesitate pulling them off. Not slowing down game play by not finishing off their foes with stunts just because they might be better needed later. Instead it works best when they're continuously thinking to use more stunts in wilder ways, living one fight at a time!

[Sync]

So...the "battery" drains at the end of combat - there is no carry-over to the next encounter. You spend 'em or lose 'em.

[Loswaith]

Thats what I figured.

You can always put a cap on how may you can charge up to as well, so there is an incentive to keep using them and avoid the issue Zapp detailed.

[darkdaysdawn]

I've been trying to think of ways to make the stunt system a little more opportunistic and less random, and the reason is simple: I think an experienced adventurer would be able to seize the opportunity for a stunt more often than a less experienced one. RAW doesn't reward experience with prowess -- everyone has the same chance of a stunt, and the same selection of stunts.

I don't recall where I saw it, but there is a magic item in one of the books (called something to do with "fate") that gives the player the option of, once per day, adding or subtracting 1 from any die to cause doubles on a roll that did not already have doubles. This got me thinking, maybe higher level characters should be able to do this. Maybe once per level, or per two levels. Now, after playing more, I think that would be too generous. It should cost something.

After reading this post and pondering a bit more, how about a talent that provides this ability? That way, players who like the randomness of stunts and use of stunts as a damage source can pursue it, while those that chose to max their DPS on non-random sources may do so.

Brainstorming, the talent would be something like:
"Some-Creatively-Named-Talent"
Novice - once per day (or per session if you keep time like I do) you can add/subtract 1 from any single die of a roll to create doubles, and thus generate stunt points, when doubles did not occur naturally.
Journeyman - as per Novice, but twice per day.
Master - as per Novice, but thrice per day.

This way, players have to give up pursuit of other talents to gain this ability. For a "daring fighter", this might make sense. For a high DPS mage, maybe not? Natural doubles would still generate stunt points as per RAW.

Like I said, just brainstorming, but it might address the randomness element for those who wish it addressed. Thus, the GM would not be greatly altering game balance for all players, nor presuming to know what all players desire for their characters.

[darkdaysdawn]

Follow-up brainstorm: If the stunt talent were used, it would mean that baddies don't automatically have it. Some may, but it would be per enemy design, which is significantly different then what would happen if the "stunt point battery meter" type system were used, wherein I would expect that all combatants would use the system.

[darkdaysdawn]

I'm still considering the "stunt talent" concept I brainstormed earlier. This is what I've got now (needs a better name though!). Thoughts?

“Opportunist” -- The opportunist has a knack for timing his attacks and seizing the opportunity to perform heroic feats.
* Novice -- once per day, you may add 1 to any die to cause doubles and generate stunt points in a roll that did not generate stunt points naturally.
* Journeyman -- when you add 1 to any die to cause doubles, you gain 2 SP in addition to the Stunt Points indicated by the Dragon Die.
* Master -- you may use your ability twice per day, i.e. twice per day you may add 1 to cause doubles and gain 2 SP in addition to the Stunt Points indicated by the Dragon Die.

I'm still debating if "once per day" is fair? Does it encourage players to sleep for a night after every big encounter? Would once per encounter be too much?

[Loswaith]

An alternative could be to go;
Novice: +1 to the dragon die for the number of stunt points generated (max of 6)
Journeyman: +1 SP anytime you generate stunt points
Master: +1 to the dragon (or any, if you like) die to make doubles, if the test is otherwise successful

or possibly;
Novice: +1 SP anytime you generate stunt points
Journeyman: +2 SP anytime you generate stunt points (though this may be a bit much)
Master: +1 to the dragon (or any, if you like) die to make doubles, if the test is otherwise successful

I guess the main point is you could have the main aspect the +1 to a die for making doubles as a master thing and not worry about the once per day/encounter limitations.

[JRHigley]

Some cool ideas here, but I think the discussion could use a little focusing--if I understand where you're going, you'd like to add some control to the exercise of stunts by the players (GM too?), rather than having them be solely random events? The question I would ask is: Do you want to Increase, decrease, or leave the same the amount of stunting during gameplay?

Here comes my 2 cents:

If you want to leave the amount of stunting the same, I like the idea of "charging a battery" or having a pool of SPs that a character can draw on. Start with 0. When you roll doubles you can use the stunt points immediately or add any unused stunt points to your character's pool.

I think the maximum SP available in the pool could be either level or some attribute, or some combination of both. My initial instinct was level + a primary stat (based on class):

Level+WILL for Mages (Yay! A reason to pick something other than Magic on even level-ups)
Level+PER for Rogues (Less of a one-stat wonder than mages, but same rationale as above)
Level+CON for Warriors (Warriors need all 3 primary stats, but we don't want to give them a freebee by linking stunt points to a secondary stat. This is the same reason I think it should not be a single stat, i.e., CON or WILL for all classes.)

Level+Stat might be too much of a game-changer for higher level characters, and since primary stats climb already, I think just WILL, PER, or STR would be enough of a pool to draw on "when you need it."


If you wanted to increase the amount of stunting, why not do the usual stunting on doubles PLUS a full pool at the start of each encounter for "when you need it." Again, you'd need to play a bit to see where your sweet-spot is when it comes to how much of a reserve your characters should have.

If you wanted to reduce the number of stunts, maybe start each encounter with a full pool (a lot like the CRPG) and execute stunts whenever your players feel like it. In this case, you might want to go with the Level+stat. (Players beware! Throw a few "waves" of enemies at them in a single "encounter" and they'll think twice before annihilating the first "wave" with their SPs. Want to make a certain encounter in Where Eagles Dare even more tense, anyone...?)

If you want to really reduce the number of stunts, maybe start each DAY with a full battery...maybe you're feeling saucy and want to go with the Mage's Mana progression:

Mage: Stunt Point Pool = 10+WILL+1d6, WILL+1d6 more per level
Rogue: Stunt Point Pool=10+PER+1d6, PER+1d6 more per level
Warrior: Stunt Point Pool=10+CON+1d6, CON+1d6 more per level

-JR

p.s. Ready for the twist? Add back in the randomness - you have a pool (per day/per encounter/how much depends on your preference), but you can tap into it only on doubles. Keep the tension in the die-roll, but there's a reason (beyond the ability to soak damage) an experienced adventurer wins the tough fights--they've got more stunt points (and at lower levels, possibly even stunts) to draw on.

[Loswaith]

For me it was more giving players the ability to use actions that have been deligated to stunts. Because of the stunts players see a bit that there are no actions outside a few basic ones, and that the stunts replace this mechanic.

I like the effect of stunts being ancillary effects. For example (using possible deliberate actions) in the heat of battle you may hit your opponents hand or arm causing them to drop thier weapon (the disarm stunt), haps you do a low swing or kick them, thus causing them to fall (knock prone). The result in effecs of the battle making them seem more dynamic/cinematic, where parts like that are just abstracted out in most other systems.

Conversly a character could want to intentionally disarm an opponent (maybe they dont want to kill them), so could use a deliberate action to try and disarm them using their own skill. Or if they want to cause an enemy to fall over (for whatever reasons), they can intentionally kick out the legs of their opponent, or push them causing them to trip over something they havent noticed.

Thats what I was after thinking about it, while adding a bit of of the DA:O mechanics of having energy to limit the deliberate actions.

I dont realy think there is any need to make them much more frequent, just having some effects you can use when you need them.

Though I'm thinking the easier way is to simply add actions to achieve it in and forget about the DA:O energy simile side of things.

[PH_Dungeon]

Wouldn't the easy thing be to have a hero point type system. The characters start with say 3 per session. The gm can award more if he wants. The game still works as normal, but the character can spend a hero point to trigger the dragon die even if no doubles are rolled. This gives the character at least three times per session where they get to control over when they get to use stunt points. Obviously, players might try to wait until a 6 comes up, but this might not always be the case since there might be times when they are really in a pinch and need whatever stunt points they can get.

Another option would be to spend the hero point, to trigger the dragon die, but you have to re-roll the dragon die, so you don't get to control how many stunt points you actually get.

[darkdaysdawn]

@JRHigley

At first I was brainstorming, but...hmm...focus, huh? Ok, I gave it some thought. My motivations are threefold:

1. I would like to increase the frequency of stunts for higher-level characters because I believe that, with experience, one would be able to better seize the opportunity for heroism.

2. I would like to decrease the randomness of occurrence of stunts for higher-level characters and give their players some (slight to moderate) control over when stunts occur, again, because I believe that with experience, a hero learns how to take maximum advantage their opportunities.

3. I feel that because of the mechanics of the RAW AGE system, as character level increases, and the adversaries the party faces become more difficult, combat encounters will lengthen. The saving grace (and it does keep our attention) is that the longer the combat, the more (statistically speaking) stunts occur, and thus the more "heroic", "fantastic", and generally "epic" a particular combat seems. My fear is that the novelty will wear off, and also, it definitely distracts from the story aspect when a single "boss" encounter takes a whole evening -- players start to forget why they were facing the boss in the first place.

To address all three of these concerns, as previously mentioned, I'm considering talents, specializations, and other methods of allowing progressive control of stunts relative to experience. Talents and specializations are intrinsically tied to character level AND player choice, insofar as the player may choose to pursue said talent/specialization or not.

If my suspicions in #3 (above) pan out, i.e. "epic-ness" is really more about the heroic feats that occur and less about the time it took to accomplish them, then I see no reason to sacrifice play session time and draw out combat.

Instead, let players choose to go with more stunt generation if that suits their tastes and makes the game more fun. That means, 1) let stunts occur more often for more experienced combatants, 2) let characters, PC or NPC, choose the stunt-control path instead of other character development paths if it suits the player or the NPC's needs or desires, and 3) speed up combat but maintain the epic-ness to keep gaming sessions from dragging as level increases and adversaries become more difficult (we recently had three 4th level characters take on a single ogre in an area with special environmental stunts, and while it was a total blast to pay, it took an entire session!).

I'll post my the specifics soon, but so far I have, in the works, 1 talent and two specializations that provide the option for players to choose a more "random reduced stunt system" as their character's mode of combat.

Follow-up to come...

[darkdaysdawn]

@PH_Dungeon

I kind of like your first idea: each player gets X number of times per session/day that they can opt to gain SP equal to Dragon Die, regardless of doubles. I might extend that concept so that it improves with experience, e.g. every 3 levels you get one additional "I want SP now" option per day/session -- as I've already said, my biggest issue is that higher level characters are no more likely to generate stunts.

Following this potential house rule, you could choose to keep the number of "I want SP now" options low'ish and still let natural doubles do what they do. Or, you could set the player-chosen stunt incident rate higher and remove the natural doubles system altogether (or leave that for NPC's and adversaries only?).

Regarding the bit about "if you choose to generate SP, you reroll the Dragon Die". I would say why bother. Let the players strategize whether it is better to take more or fewer SP now, or wait for a higher Dragon Die roll (if one ever comes!) before they inflict their stunts.

[Sync]

My motivation for changing the way stunts work is this:

Given that the attack bonus is largely flat/non-progressive, and Defence only occasionally improves, the combat rolls are largely linear...and stunts can turn a Boss-fight into a trivial event. I've seen a low-level character take apart a Boss because of stunts.

The idea of providing a limited pool of stunt points that can be tapped during combat has the potential to make Boss fights what they are supposed to be: difficult.