New Social Talents

[Loswaith]

After a bit of a discussion about the contacts talent over here

It got me thinking about some solutions for further Social/ role-playing type talents. Though so as not to muddy the other thread, I went for a new one.

Gilded Tongue
Requirements: Communication 2+
Some say you have a silver tongue. Maybe it's natural or you just worked hard to improve your rhetoric. Whatever the case you have the 'gift of the gab'.
Novice:
Your words are elequent and persuasive. If you fail a Communication (Persuasion) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll.
Journeyman:
Through your quick wit and forked tongue you have made deception an artform. If you fail a Communication (Deception) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll.
Master:
With practiced persuasion and deception you are able to easily and decisively cause others to become enamoured with you (assuming you are of their prefered gender). If you fail a Communication (Seduction) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll. You can also perform the Flirt stunt for 3 SP instad of the usual 4.

Sleuth
Requirements: Communication 1+, Cunning 1+
You have an analytical mind, good for logical reasoning.
Novice:
You are good at dicerning facts from fiction about hidden or complex situations. If you fail a Communication (Investigation) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll.
Journeyman:
You are able to quickly notice and deduce information about your surroundings. You are able to perform the That Makes Me Wonder stunt for 1sp instead of the usual 3.
Master:
You are able to better tell truth from lies and are better able to find hidden facts. You gain a +1 bonus to any tests to resist Communication (Deception), Communication (Persuasion) or Communication (Seduction) and gain a +1 bonus to any Perception (searching) tests.
A consideration was making the bonus +2 but not certain if that would be too much given the number of tests its useful against.

Fence
Requirements: Communication 2+ or Cunning 2+
You have a canny knack for determing the value of objects and getting a good deal.
Novice:
You have a good eye and can quickly tell between treasures and trinkets. If you fail a Cunning (Evaluation) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll.
Journeyman:
You have a knack for getting the best bargains and how to make the most of any deal. If you fail a Communication (Barganing) test, you can re-roll it, but you must keep the results of the second roll.
Master:
You always seem to get the best deals. Any deal you make results in 10% of the value of the deal going in your favour, even if you fail the initial Communication (Barganing) test. Any non-monetary deals will go slightly better in your favour (whether you pass or fail a Communication(Barganing) test) as determined by the GM.


As a side thing a sugestion to add a reroll for Communication (Leadership), to the Journeyman rank of the Command talent too.

[shonuff]

The seduction re-roll in Sleuth (Master) seems out of place to me. I think I understand the why, it's just the text around it doesn't quite fit, imo.

[Crazydwarf]

These are all kinds of awesome !

I'm a bit confused at the master level of the fence talent though.

Say a PC with the talent wants to pay half price for a sword.
If he fails the test, the merchant that would normally demand the full price, will still give him a 10% discount ?
If the PC was successful he acctually gets a 60% discount rather than the 50% he asked for ?

Master Sleuth
I'm thinking a +1 on Perception (Empathy) instead of Perception (Searching) might be a better fit ?

[Sidmen]

From my reading, you get a 10% discount regardless of what you manage to "talk" the dealer down. Say, you negotiate a sword to cost 15sp; it now costs 14 (10% discount). If you paid full price (failing the test) and pay 20sp, you instead pay 18.

[Admiral Yacob]

From my reading, you get a 10% discount regardless of what you manage to "talk" the dealer down. Say, you negotiate a sword to cost 15sp; it now costs 14 (10% discount). If you paid full price (failing the test) and pay 20sp, you instead pay 18.

That was my understanding as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head with great communication based talents. I would definitely love to use these. I am ok with the resist Com (Seduction) because when I think of the great detective stories, there are always bad guys and gals trying to seduce the hero sleuth off the case. I think Perception (Searching) works but, alternatively, I would look for another Cunning or Communication, since those are the stat basis for Sleuth.

[shonuff]

Master Sleuth
I'm thinking a +1 on Perception (Empathy) instead of Perception (Searching) might be a better fit ?

I disagree. Sleuthing is about logical deduction, so imo it would be easier to find things than to relate to people.

I am ok with the resist Com (Seduction) because when I think of the great detective stories, there are always bad guys and gals trying to seduce the hero sleuth off the case.

That's my bad. Read that as a bonus and not a resist. I need to lern 2 reed gud.

[Crazydwarf]

Fair enough, it was just a thought
I just figured it might be appropriate for detectives to have a "gut feeling" about people, nervous witnesses that are lying or not telling all etc.

[shonuff]

I could see that. That's just not something that I would call "Empathy" although that is how it might be categorized in the rules.

[exhominem]

Couple of thoughts. For the Gilded Tongue talent, I'm not sure I understand the hierarchy of the re-rolls. Is deception really more powerful than persuasion? Seduction I can see putting on top, but I'm not exactly sure it's harder to lie to someone than it is to persuade them of something. Also, I'd be wary of putting this talent in a game, as it's hard enough to keep players mature without giving them a free license to hit on / seduce every NPC they run across (sexuality permitting).

The Sleuth talent looks pretty good, but for the Master ability... at least when I GM, lying to the players often becomes pretty tricky, and it seems like it would be difficult to keep behind the scenes talent bonuses in mind when I was trying to make secret rolls intended to deceive the players. Also, a lot of players don't really like it when whether or not a character of theirs is seduced / persuaded is determined by a die roll.

Other than that, straight re-rolls just seem kind of bland to me, mechanics-wise. I like it more when talents are more than just "super focuses." But maybe that's just me.

[Loswaith]

From my reading, you get a 10% discount regardless of what you manage to "talk" the dealer down. Say, you negotiate a sword to cost 15sp; it now costs 14 (10% discount). If you paid full price (failing the test) and pay 20sp, you instead pay 18.

Thats basically the idea, even if the Master Fence fails a roll they still never enirely fail, they still manage to come to an agreement on price, its just not quite what the Fence would want, but its still ess than the common man.
the 15sp sword would likely be 13sp 50cp, but hey im nitpicking and left the rounding ambigious for that reason

...
I think you hit the nail on the head with great communication based talents. I would definitely love to use these. I am ok with the resist Com (Seduction) because when I think of the great detective stories, there are always bad guys and gals trying to seduce the hero sleuth off the case. I think Perception (Searching) works but, alternatively, I would look for another Cunning or Communication, since those are the stat basis for Sleuth.

Feel free, thats why I shared them. The discussion with crazy dwarf in the contacts thread inspired these to come about as i didnt feel all the social talents realy fitted togeather.
I also went with perception(searching) because Sleuth I wanted to be more than purely a socaial talent as the feel of the talent does cover some physical aspects of noticing aspects (especially if investigating a crime scene for information) but also didnt want to proclude from being used in conjunction with the Thievery talent, nore make the master talent too powerful.

Fair enough, it was just a thought
I just figured it might be appropriate for detectives to have a "gut feeling" about people, nervous witnesses that are lying or not telling all etc.

This is why they have the bonus to resist the fallacies. I didnt see them as being ones to be able to intuativly tell, more so than anyone else someones emotional state, though they can notice the tells of someone being dishonest. This doesnt stop you changing it or even adding a bonus to Perception(Empathy) tests.

Couple of thoughts. For the Gilded Tongue talent, I'm not sure I understand the hierarchy of the re-rolls. Is deception really more powerful than persuasion? Seduction I can see putting on top, but I'm not exactly sure it's harder to lie to someone than it is to persuade them of something. Also, I'd be wary of putting this talent in a game, as it's hard enough to keep players mature without giving them a free license to hit on / seduce every NPC they run across (sexuality permitting).

The Sleuth talent looks pretty good, but for the Master ability... at least when I GM, lying to the players often becomes pretty tricky, and it seems like it would be difficult to keep behind the scenes talent bonuses in mind when I was trying to make secret rolls intended to deceive the players. Also, a lot of players don't really like it when whether or not a character of theirs is seduced / persuaded is determined by a die roll.

Other than that, straight re-rolls just seem kind of bland to me, mechanics-wise. I like it more when talents are more than just "super focuses." But maybe that's just me.

Well as I see it outright lying to someone involves some amount of persuasion, you are effectivly persuading someone to believe a fallacy, as opposed to just persuading them to see your way.

Well often lying and detecting if someone is lying (resisting it) are opposed rolls, though because there are allot of focuses that can be used to resist (ie. detect) persuasion, deception and seduction, its easier to write it that way rather than listing all the possible focuses to resist with. In most of those cases the GM can just tell the player thats what they believe, or alternativly give them some indication (in whatever manner) that the individual isnt being totally honest.

While true they are a bit bland (they deal with mechanics after all), I typically go with the spirit of what is intended, and simply give rules for the mechanical parts of it. The role-playing part of them are way too fluid to nail down.

On the Master Sleuth, Im curious whether others think the bonuses would be better at +2 rather than +1, and not become too much given other master talents?

[Crazydwarf]

This is why they have the bonus to resist the fallacies

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking with suggesting empathy really.
It seemed to me to be the roll to resist deception with, but I think I had a brainfart there, since that bit was allready included as a bonus.

On the Master Sleuth, Im curious whether others think the bonuses would be better at +2 rather than +1, and not become too much given other master talents?

I would likely keep it at +1 since it does cover alot of ground. And additionally the searching focus aswell.
I have a hunch it might be too much with +2, but I havent done a thorough comparison.

[Loswaith]

My thoughts are much the same on the +2, just not sure that the +1 is realy going to impact the rolls in any significant way, which then makes the bonus not that worth investing in, given its a master rank talent. Likely needs some playtesting to realy sort that out.

[Crazydwarf]

Since DA is a low-numbers game, I think a +1 bonus is rather good.
And the fact that it spreads across alot of resistances, thus is more likely to come into play.
Though these rolls in general don't really occur NPC to PC, more often the other way around.
Atleast at my tables, others might play it differently though.

If that's the case then maybe it's not so worthwhile, and the bonus can be raised to compensate.

[Loswaith]

I've seen the rolls flow both ways I just tend to handle them differently, if a PC is resisting I use it more for them detecting any fallicies or what have you, and leave it up to the player what they do with that information. For NPCs is typically more about resisting things.

Because of the broard spectrum I agree with you on the +1, and I usualy find its better to be conservative and increase bonuses as play-testing shows its needed.

Thanks for the feedback

[Sidmen]

the 15sp sword would likely be 13sp 50cp, but hey im nitpicking and left the rounding ambigious for that reason

I lop off copper pieces because I use actual coins (spraypainted poker chips) and didn't bother making copper pieces...

[Crazydwarf]

Just to expand on what I meant a bit, as I wrote it in a bit of a hurry.

Deception I usually roll for before hand and write down the result.
I don't want to tip the players off by reaching for the dice
Bargaining isn't really secret so I do the opposed rolls as they come up.

Seduction and Persuation however, is something I never bother to make rolls for.
NPC's can't (unles there is some very special exception) force results on the players with these, the players always have the choice of refusing an NPC, while the opposite is not always true.
Thus parts of this talent would be moot at my table, but as I said, Others probably plays it differently.