New Weapons (Previously Bill polearm)

[Sturn]

I came up with some weapons stats for the Bill polearm. It was a common group of polearm not in the weapon lists that had advantages for the footman against cavalry I thought had a place in a game. Please tell me what you think.

Here is the weapon I'm speaking of-

Wiki (poor picture, it shows only a very early/basic Bill):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_(weapon)
A selection of Bill heads (scroll to the bottom):
http://the-elizabethan-era.wikispaces.com/
Comparison of the Bill to other polearms:
http://www.weapons-universe.com/Swords/Medieval_Polearms.shtml

I started with the Halberd for comparison. I considered that the Bill was known for armor piercing capabilities and pulling a rider from a horse. I also considered balance issues, since I didn't want one polearm to be better then others, just different:

Weapon: Bill
Specialty: Pole-arm
Training: 1B (as Halberd)
Damage: Athletics+1 (seems should be less then +3 Halberd)
Reach: 2 (using advanced reach, same as Halberd)
Qualities: Bulk 1, Grab, Piercing 2, Two-handed
(began with Halberd, removed Powerful, added Grab and Piercing)

Q: Is the damage not enough? Athletics+2? Combined with Piercing 2 too powerful?
Q: Is the Piercing 2 too much? Piercing 1?

[Ser Moryn]

I think Athletics+1 works, if only because it's not heavy enough to be a smashing weapon like a mace or morningstar, and it doesn't have much of a piercing capability like a pike or longspear would have (it might have a chance or piercing through leather or fur, but I doubt it would be very effective even against mail [this is a fairly good article about the effectiveness of mail] and it would definitely not be stiff enough to punch through plate). Its only use would be against cavalry - either by pulling a rider down or attacking the mount - or against unarmored or weakly armored opponents (like other smallfolk levies, which would be the vast majority of men on the battlefield anyway).

[Sturn]

I've read a few more descriptions of the Bill and it seems the Piercing was not justified.

Re-reading the rules, I also noted that Grab is not needed to pull a rider from a mount, but a "Grab weapon or pole-arm". It appears the Bill was not included and its abilities were instead incorporated into the other polearms.

It looks like the Peasant Tool is actually the Bill and some other weapon design is not needed. The first Bills were in fact Bill Hooks (similar to the Crowbill in the rules?) attached to poles by peasants, the later more advanced versions were militarized when it was discovered the improvised version did a good job.

If you don't want to arm your Men-at-Arms with "Peasant Tools" perhaps "Bills" are the militarized version that removes the Fragile quality, but costs a bit more.

Dumping my Bill stats, sorry for the waste of time but thanks for the input.

[Ser Moryn]

heh, no worries. There are worse ways to spend time.

[Sturn]

My second take on a new weapon.

I plan on using the advanced rules for Reach. I noted that a person using a Longsword would have a -1D penalty if say, someone with a knife got inside his reach. I liked this, and thought about movies where this commonly happens....and the hero smashes the pommel of his sword down upon his enemy.

Thus:

Weapon: Pommel/Shaft
Specialty: Brawling
Training: -
Damage: Athletics-2/Athletics-3
Reach: 0
Qualities: Upon weapons of Reach 2+, Slow (except Quarterstaff)

Poor damage, uses brawling, slow for larger weapons, but gives you an option to wack that person in close with the shaft or pommel of your longer weapon.

You might limit this to only certain weapons. Such as Pommel only on weapons of Reach 0 or 1 and Shaft only on Spears or other long, shafted weapons.

I like this one, and it made me think of weapons with more then one attack form. Not sure if I like this next idea, but something to think about.

Using the spear portion of your Halberd (instead of the cutting portion that uses the standard rules):

Weapon: Halberd's Spear
Specialty: Pole-arm
Training: 1B
Damage: Athletics (instead of Athletics+3)
Reach: 2
Qualities: Remove Powerful, but add Set for Charge

Thoughts?

[Ser Moryn]

I noted that a person using a Longsword would have a -1D penalty if say, someone with a knife got inside his reach. I liked this, and thought about movies where this commonly happens....and the hero smashes the pommel of his sword down upon his enemy.

That certainly happens a lot, and there are rules for use of shield and whatnot for that, but I'd also like to point out that, based on my own (very very limited) research into various fechtbuchs and medieval/early renaissance swordsmanship, there were quite a few moves that involved half-handing the sword for close range fighting, wrestling moves and throws (extremely similar to judo), as well as unarmed grappling and striking attacks. To that end, I've incorporated elements like that into my characters, but instead of altering rules (well, outside of my own reach variations), I've just given talent swordsmen bonus abilities/skills that would reflect a more comprehensive fighting style. For instance, my namesake, Ser Moryn of Longtable, fights with a greatsword, and to reflect halfhanding moves and grappling attacks and the like, I've given him 2B in grappling, which he can use with his sword without disarming or sheathing it.

I did slightly change the reach rules so that a grapple attack such as that would threaten at zero range, and has a chance to ward away an enemy if he passed Moryn's original range.

In short, though, I like your rules. They're more thought through than the shit I do.

[Sturn]

Here's another idea for the same topic without adding a new weapon.

You can use Brawling (Fist or Guantlet) with a weapon in your hand (you don't want to drop it), but you lose the Grab quality and suffer a -1D due to the weapon getting in the way.

To simulate a pommel strike or shaft bash (instead of a punch) with Brawling, use Athletics-2 and you don't suffer the -1D of above, but receive the Slow quality if your weapon is Reach 2+.

[Irontruth]

Instead of -1D, I would just give it a Training penalty with Brawling, I'd say 2B.

If you're going for historical accuracy, recent research has shown that German/Italian traditions of fighting were as advanced as we consider Chinese/Japanese styles. Learning to punch with a sword in your hand effectively is possible, it just takes a lot of training.

[Ser Moryn]

Yes, definitely. There's a fantastic documentary available on netflix called Reclaiming the Blade, which is about the "rediscovery" and popularity of Western Martial Arts. It's really goddamn good, and it shows how a lot of the disparity between what we consider actual martial arts - i.e. eastern stuff - and their western equivalents is dying down. I'm actually in a little club called Ars Gladii, we study German 16th-17th century longsword styles.

Anyway, Sturn, I don't think the grab penalty is necessary, I think Irontruth is closer to it... maybe it's just not accessible until you have a 4 or 5 in fighting? Or maybe a different skill tree, like versatile fight I II and III or something.

for some very cool historical examples, check these out:
Messer
Zweihander

[Sturn]

Thanks for the replies folks. And the videos were excellent. Makes me want to join a local SCA group.

I favor the quarterstaff myself, never any training whatsoever, but had a nack for it in the military (pugil sticks) where I was company champ and won nearly every match even when matched 2 vs. 1. Of course that was half a lifetime ago. (in my house rules I added +1 Defense to Quarterstaff, but I'm biased, and probably not considering how easy a sword could wack it in half when used to block).

[Sturn]

There's a fantastic documentary available on netflix called Reclaiming the Blade, which is about the "rediscovery" and popularity of Western Martial Arts.

Just put this in my video que, will watch it tonight or tomorrow. Thanks. I love this kind of stuff.

I have no training, or experience for that matter in any ancient weapons (other then pugil sticks or police batons). Thanks for the help. My knowledge is purely from reading about the weapons, not actually using them. So while I can look at pictures of sword and polearms, identify them, tell their history, if forced to fight with them I would only know to, "Stick them with the pointy end".

If there are questions on Brawling I may be able to help though! Not a, "martial artist" at all (couldn't tell you the differnece between judo and karate), but quite a bit of training and hands on experience in just plain "grappling". Military training and 17 years in law enforcement, current team leader of a Speical Response Team (aka swat). A mixed bag of different training through the years from military and police, but the best and most used (for me) is from Russian Systema (without the knife or firearm training). Excellent no BS stuff, nothing fancy, just simple but effective things you may actually remember and use under stress. So simple that it stresses not going full force and outsiders commonly think it's effectiveness is being faked.

The reason for the tangent is that I noticed in those video links that the no frills European sword techniques appeared more along the lines of what I've been taught (without weapons) as compared to the "dance" of Asian styles. While there used to be a very large judo influence upon police hand to hand training, the trend in the last decade seems to be away from it and towards extremely simple but effective and quick techniques. No dancing around or complicated 4-step moves, just simple stuff that has been proven to work. I think that runs closer to what I saw in those videos then Asian styles.

[Irontruth]

The practical martial arts usually bear a strong resemblance to each other. Differences usually end up stemming from the environment they're practiced in, particularly that of the surrounding technology level. The high kicking Asian forms are more a result of the various martial arts becoming more art and less martial. Traditions start to change a lot once they become used less for hurting people and more as a means of fitness/discipline or competition. Competition especially changes a martial art, because it adds rules.

I also don't practice anything. I learned a little bit of grappling early in life, but haven't had to use anything in years.

I saw reclaiming the blade, it's a very interesting documentary. It makes a lot of sense though, that Europe would have some extremely advanced forms of hand-to-hand combat though, since warfare was a huge part of history. When you have that much fighting and the ability to support professional soldiers in society, some people are going to get very good at it.

[Ser Moryn]

I noticed in those video links that the no frills European sword techniques appeared more along the lines of what I've been taught (without weapons) as compared to the "dance" of Asian styles.

Definitely! Although I will say, just from having friends who've been doing eastern martial arts for longer than I've been doing western, that when you get away from showy choreography and skill competitions (where people do what look like gymnastic floor routines with punches and kicks), eastern martial arts are just as brutally effective. That said, though, I really wish there were more movies that take on a more realistic approach to swordfighting in either hemisphere, because aside from it being practical, it would look extremely cool. Old Kurasawa movies (Ran, Throne of Blood, Seven Samurai, Yojimbo and Sanjuro, etc) do a fairly good job at showing the very fast and very dangerous katana styles, and there are only a couple movies that come to mind when I think about longsword or rapier fighting that do it well - Alatriste (mentioned in Reclaiming the Blade - the book series is defo worth the read as well) and Rob Roy are really the only ones that have moderately accurate fight scenes.

I should stop now... I get pretty excited about this stuff and could go on for hours.

[Sturn]

Alatriste (mentioned in Reclaiming the Blade - the book series is defo worth the read as well) and Rob Roy are really the only ones that have moderately accurate fight scenes.

I watched Reclaiming the Blade last night, it was great. Thanks for the referral. The only movie I had not watched in their list of realistic sword-fighting movies was Alatriste. Is there an English-speaking version? Or at least one with subtitles? I can't recall all they listed now (Rob Roy -watched twice, Troy - own, Gladiator - own, Alatriste - never seen) but do recall that was the only one I missed.

I should stop now... I get pretty excited about this stuff and could go on for hours.

No problem at all, keep talking if you wish. I can't speak to my wife or my cat about these subjects.

[Sturn]

After everyone's input, I settled on this:

You may attempt Brawling attacks of Fist and Gauntlet (Reach 0) with a weapon in hand, but give the Brawling attack Training equal to 1/2 the Reach of the weapon held +1 (Longsword 1B, Halberd 2B, Pike 4B, etc).

Nothing else complicated, such as my original proposal of new close-in attacks for longer weapons.

[Ser Moryn]

The only way I was able to watch Alatriste was through a -completely and totally legal for real- download. The book series is around though, and honestly it's better... the movie attempts to cram in the storylines of almost every book, and the result is kind of a mess. Still, it's good, and Viggo Mortensen is quite good. The writer's name is Arturo Perez Reverte, and the books play sort of like a pomo Spanish version of the Richard Sharpe series.

I think they mention Kingdom of Heaven as well? Also a pretty good movie.

[Paedrig]

For me "kindoms of heavens" was a full load of Sh*t. I mean, i am no participant of ANY church, but how this piece of **** treatet the matter of faith (in the middle age) was horrible.
This sappy story "the blacksmith and the princess"...
Why it must every time be such a dammed nobody? I am no expert for this age - but was the REAL Balian guy a blacksmith bevore he went to palestine?

The Templars only as a bunch of idiots and criminals? They were maybe not as good or tolerant as some overenthusiastic admirers want, but at least it seems, that they understood how to fight and to die (if nothing else).


Saladin was o. K. (allthough perhaps a little TOO good - i admire this man, but he was not SO good hearted. After all he was a warlord like his enemies and allies. All templars taken as prisoners at Hattin were executed, and the people of Jerusalem who couldn't pay the set ransom were enslaved) but the crusaders sucks at all.
Especially this speech of Balian (in the film) bevore the attack on Jerusalem "Yes man, all this with your faith is bullshit - but nevertheless, let us fight till the death"

[Ser Moryn]

Granted, from a historically accuracy perspective, Kingdom of Heaven has much to be desired, but it's inaccuracies are no more egregious than most other hollywood movies. Gladiator is, if anything, much worse, as is Braveheart (which, despite being one of my all-time favorites, is one of the most horridly inaccurate movies of all time).

One of the most accurate I've ever seen was Alexander, and aside from some wickedly awesome battle scenes, the whole thing was... not that good as a movie.

So when it comes to movies, I'm not that much of a historical purist, despite my history degree. I'd rather watch something interesting than boring.

[Kajani]

Ok Morin, I understand your point of view and it makes sense. But is it so wrong to hope for a good story AND a little bit realism? Perhaps it is…
Good question why this is possible in some “nearer” parts of history. I mean, beneath a lot of trash there are several good films about World War One and Two or about the wars and so in 19th century – very few about older ages, I would say. Ok, that is a question of like and dislike, but for me I must think very hard to find a real good film about the ancient Rome or Greece or so…
By the way, I would say (only from my point of view) Kingdom of Heaven has neither a good story nor realism…hehe. Ok, Braveheart was even worse.


Fun aside, we speak about weapons. What do You (and others) think about this (I thought it could be good to have a weapon between the HUGE Longaxe and the Battleaxe), a military-form of a Mattock, so to speak:

Waraxe

This weapon is the greater brother of the battleaxe, but not as great as the longaxe. It is quite a deadly tool, which could cut of the head of a horse or a limb of a man, if used by a skilled fighter. In some cases the weapon is double-bladed or has a spike or hammer on the opposite side of the single blade, but most of these weapons rely only on a single, deadly blade. The Waraxe is too heavy to be used single handed by anyone without real giants.

Speciality: Axes
Training: -
Damage: Athletics+1
Qualities: Powerful, Two-Handed
Reach: 1
Weight: 7 lb.
Cost: 140 ss

[Sturn]

....<snip>....By the way, I would say (only from my point of view) Kingdom of Heaven has neither a good story nor realism…hehe.

I believe the documentary was speaking of the sword play itself, not the entire movie. The documentary we were discussing was pointing out movies with semi-realistic European sword fights. It pointed out that none are very good, but gave a list of the best ones. Kingdom of Heaven was being singled out for its sword play (the documentary shows the scene of the main character being trained to fight with a sword), not for the movie's historical accuracy or story.

[Ser Moryn]

Sturn is correct.

to Paedrig: have you ever watched Rome, the HBO series? It was quite good. It took some historical liberties, yes, but it was an extremely gritty look at Roman life in the 1st century BCE with some astounding performances and sets. Definitely worth the watch.

[Pytorb]

Here's my take on a few new (*) or changed weapons, including Sturn's milatrised peasant's tools as a Bill.

Weapon: Battleaxe
Speciality: Axes
Training: -
Damage: Athletics
Qualities: Adaptable, Powerful (2H only)

Weapon: Labrys*
Speciality: Axes
Training: 1B
Damage: Athletics
Qualities: Adaptable, Fast
A Labrys is a double headed axe and so the wielder is able to fight more easily against multiple opponents.

Weapon: Crowbill
Speciality: Axes
Training: -
Damage: Athletics-1
Qualities: Adaptable, Shattering 1

Weapon: Ball and Chain
Speciality: Bludgeon
Training: 1B
Damage: Athletics+1
Qualities: Powerful, Shattering 1, Slow, Unwieldy

Weapon: Mace
Speciality: Bludgeon
Training: -
Damage: Athletics
Qualities: Shattering 1

Weapon: Maul
Speciality: Bludgeon
Training: 1B
Damage: Athletics+1
Qualities: Bulk 2, Powerful, Shattering 2, Slow, Staggering, Two-handed

Weapon: Quarterstaff
Speciality: Bludgeon
Training: -
Damage: Athletics
Qualities: Defensive +1, Fast, Two-handed

Weapon: Warhammer
Speciality: Bludgeon
Training: -
Damage: Athletics
Qualities: Powerful, Shattering 1, Slow

Weapon: Bastard Sword
Speciality: Long Blade
Training: 1B
Damage: Athletics+1
Qualities: Adaptable, Powerful (2H only)

Weapon: Tuck/Estoc*
Speciality: Long Blade
Training: 2B
Damage: Athletics+1
Qualities: Piercing 2, Two-handed
The Tuck, or Estoc, is essentially a three foot long sharpened spike wielded like a two handed sword. When swung it will briuse and break bones but it is designed as a thrusting weapon to punch through armour.

Weapon: Bill
Speciality: Pole-arm
Training: -
Damage: Athletics+2
Qualities: Two-handed, Unwieldy

Weapon: Dagger
Speciality: Short Blade
Training: -
Damage: Agility-2
Qualities: Defensive +1, Fast, Off-hand+1

Weapon: Dirk
Speciality: Short Blade
Training: -
Damage: Agility-2
Qualities: Defensive +0, Fast, Off-hand+2

Weapon: Short Sword*
Speciality: Short Blade
Training: -
Damage: Athletics-1
Qualities: Defensive +0, Off-hand+1
A short version of the standard Long Sword a Short Sword is a notable primary weapon especially when thrusted rather than swung. It can also be used as an off-hand weapon.

I've also instituted a house rule that when fighting cautiously the benefit to Combat Defence goes up from 3 to 4 if the combatant has a weapon with the Defensive quality (hence the Defensive+0).

EDIT: Updated and expanded here...

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10605

[stephenix]

Sturn is correct.

to Paedrig: have you ever watched Rome, the HBO series? It was quite good. It took some historical liberties, yes, but it was an extremely gritty look at Roman life in the 1st century BCE with some astounding performances and sets. Definitely worth the watch.

Yes, I second to that. I love watching Rome also.