Opposite of Deception?

[Hellebore]

What are we supposed to be using to oppose Deception tests? Com (Investigation) or Per (Empathy)? Seems odd there is no direct opposite for deception...

Hellebore

[Loswaith]

Perception in most cases I would think, I cant recall a specific focus for it however. Perception(lies or fallacies) is what I would think could be used.

[Zapp]

I'd say the OP has a point.

Coming from other rpgs, you would expect the DA design team to point you toward one (or three) alternatives already from the start.

This should be in the section on opposed rolls, if not in the starting set, at least in Box Set 2.

[Admiral Yacob]

I would say it would depend on how they're trying to deceive. If trying to lie to someone's face, a Per (Empathy) would reveal that they are being false with you. If they are trying to forge a document to deceive, a Com (Investigation) might be necessary to verify the document. It all depends on circumstances of use but, as a rule of thumb, I'd use Per (Empathy) to oppose it.

[Teodor Kalamov]

Kill the lying bastard.

[Shadow Wolf]

We ran into this last night in my group actually. Perception makes the most sense, and Empathy seems like it would be the most applicable focus as it deals with emotion and feeling.

[baronzaltor]

willpower (self dicipline) is the counter given most typically in the books to spotting lies and deceptions.

sounds wierd, but thats where they put it.

[Shadow Wolf]

willpower (self dicipline) is the counter given most typically in the books to spotting lies and deceptions.

sounds wierd, but thats where they put it.

No way? You got a page number for that? I'll look into it, and wouldn't have ever guessed that one. If that's the case, wow.

[Hellebore]

I could understand that being used vs Seduction - self control to resist temptation, but I can't really see it as the opposite of Deception...

Hellebore

[Ferai]

In the Dragon Age GM Guide, on page 17 I find mention of:

For example, a merchant may try to convince an adventurer to spend more money than he should on a new shield. The merchant would make a Communication (Bargaining) test while the adventurer would make a Willpower (Self-Discipline) test.

It's also used to resist Daze (PG p51).

In the Rogue class section for Bluff, it mentions "You must first use a minor action to try to deceive him. This is an opposed test of your Communication (Deception) vs. your opponent’s Willpower (Self-Discipline)". This seems okay for me since it sounds like the Rogue combat bluff is more like pointing and exclaiming; "Holy moly, would you look at that!" and then stabbing them when they look. Self-Discipline from the target lets them resist from looking away like a chump.

From the looks of it, each of the Willpower focuses are variations on a theme; faith, courage and self-discipline would seem to me to be different means to an end such as seeing something through against adversity or trying to withstand something. I'm not sure about detecting lies or falsehoods, however.

I would agree that it depends on what the intentions are; if it was an emotional argument they are trying to make then probably Per(Empathy). Maybe they were trying to twist teachings of Andraste to support whatever they are trying to say, then that could be against Cun(Religious Lore). Com(Deception) could easily be used to just see if the person recognized a liar or not (the words might be fine, but the person 'acts' like a liar and tips off the target).

As for the game itself, sure there's no chart of specific examples, but there's plenty of examples given through the text. In the GM guide on page 17 again:

(...) There are only eight abilities, so picking the right one should be intuitive. Remember that abilities are quite broadly defined.
Picking a focus may require more thought. Sometimes it’s obvious. If a character is trying to sneak through an alley, that’s a Dexterity (Stealth) test. Other times, the right focus is not as clear and indeed it may be that no focus applies. In that case, it’s just a straight ability test.
You should try to be open to player suggestion, though.
If a player can give a credible explanation for why a particular focus should apply to the test, you should allow its use.

Note the bolded text too; since the text of Deception says it is for "(...) lying to and tricking those less mentally adept than you", you could just call for a straight-up Cunning test if nothing else really applies.

[Shadow Wolf]

In short, there may just be no one specific answer, and it will become a variable thing. As the rules state in our GM manuals, not everything is covered and at times, will have to be chosen at the discretion of the GM. Though, thank you Ferai for providing the requested examples from the manuals.

[Loswaith]

True, its liekly more a wing it to the situation.

As to the Merchant selling you something you didnt want what in the first place more about forcing a compulsion or making someone do something against their will, so a Willpower(Self-Dicipline) to resist it seems quite logial.

What Hellebore is asking about is more when someone is trying to tell you the sky is green, as opposed to it actually being blue (an extreem thing but obvious for an example).

For resistances I like there is no hard and fast table of X to resist Y, because it makes the system that bit more flexable, and realy leaves it up to the situation or what a player can rationaly convince a GM their character could use.

For example someone convincing you need to use Mercury in forging a sword could use Perception(Empathy) to see if they are pulling a fast one or even Cunning(Crafting) to see if its a actual possible material to make a weapon, or Cunning(Engineering) to tell if Mercury is a suitable building material.

[Jeff Tidball]

I would say it would depend on how they're trying to deceive.

This is exactly right, for my money.

[Hellebore]

It makes sense that there is more than a single answer, although as the game is supposed to be about simplicity it seems an out of character complication.

A few examples may have been handy to explain to people how it worked though.

Hellebore

[Arimmus]

I use Both Empathy and Self-Discipline since the write up for Bluff Requires a Self-Discipline roll, I just go with that. Depending on the Situation however, If the character is already wary of the person, I use Empathy, if they are not, SD.

[Loswaith]

Keep in mind with Bluff for the rogue talent the rogue is trying to compel someone to look away so they can 'sucker punch' them. IE forcing them to do something.

Lying to someone is about trying to get them to believe what you say, you arent compelling them to do any action, what actions they choose to take are purely their own.

The target of a bluff doesnt even have to believe them, but if they fail the self dicipline check they will follow the Bluff. Im sure most people have done this to friends, by saying look and pointing in a direction, alot of people still look even when they know full well its a trick, because of the complusion behind it.

Both would use the same focus in most cases Communication(Deception) to execute, but there is a distinct difference.

[Admiral Yacob]

In my opinion, if you are lying to someone's face, I would generally use Per (Empathy) since you are trying to read body language and tone to see if they are lying and that's the same way you get an "empathic read" on someone. After all, everyone has some tells when they lie, the purpose is trying to notice them and read them as such.

[She]

This is a little old, but I had this doubt last friday.

I know that the manual says nothing about this, but couldn't Deception (COM) be tested against Cunning?

I think that you can tell if people lie because of their body language, so Empathy (PER) could work on an opposite test.

But you can also tell if people lie if you don't find credible what they are saying or because they don't make sense. So the opposite test could be against some Cunning focus (like a lore). But if expose the lie is about common sense, I feel that a Cunning focus related to this could be needed.

What do you think about it?

[Elfie]

The way I play it is this:

If someone lies to you about facts for which you have an relevant cunning focus you can oppose their deception with that cunning focus.

If you ask someone a question and they lie in response, you use Communication (Investigation).

If neither of the above is true, you use Perception (Empathy).

[Loswaith]

I wing it allot and dont have any hard and fast rules for what counters what. So use whatever you (or your GM) thinks is best.
Thats not allot of help I know, but lies and deceptions can come in alll sorts of flavours.

[Estoirtoh]

In my eyes it would be certainly applicable to use Deception as an opposed test against deception. If you are skilled in deception yourself, it will be easier to uncover your opponents deception (at least in a sense of con art). If the deception is a blank lie, I'd use Empathy.

[She]

I guess some tests are just more obvious than others. I find Elfie's answer quite similar to what I think. And confronting Deception against Deception may be useful too in some cases.

If nothing seems to fit the properly, maybe I might pick betwen the list the one that gives more advantage to the PC.

Thank you all.