Loswaith wrote:@ Helebore
The Comparison you are doing is rather skewed your coamparing the top and botom of the averages, of course there will be a huge disparity if you do that.
Also its not worth adding the dex for elves when you make the assumption that they have all 0 stats after racial modifiers.
If you were arguing the issues of Dwarves vs Humans or even Elves vs Humans (as they are closer to the same) then you may sell your point better. Prehaps the inherrant flaws in the static penalities on armour could be better to focus on using similare example you have to justify it.
Do you mean I shouldn't be comparing elves to dwarves, or that I've somehow used the bottom and top of their statistical averages? Because I assumed equal starting stats, modified by their racial bonuses.
Even comparing all three together you still get problems. A dwarf doesn't get better at running just because he's fighting alongside a human as a comparison. A human with 0 Dex will move at 5 yards in fullplate, or 2 yard charge. Which is still twice as far as a dwarf in the same circumstances.
I comparing elves and dwarves precisely because of the massive gulf between them. The racial starting stats aren't based on probability, so there is an equal chance of being any race. Thus comparing dwarves and elves is just as valid as comparing them to humans.
Loswaith wrote:@ General
There is also a huge disparity between size and build of dwarves and elves.
Someone 4 feet tall and stocky is going to be significantly slower than someone thats lithe and 5.5 feet tall. One can only assume that elves have longer legs than humans do proportunatly to their size.
Speed is only what a character can do in a round both races are able to travel the same distance it just takes the dwarf longer to travel that distance. A warrior isnt limied to only moving their movement rate, the limit is their movement rate each round. So the dwarf warrior may need to use their minor action for movement to reach the opponent in that round while the elf warrior doesnt. The elf is likely doing nothing with that minor action anyway.
Well dwarves in Dragon Age aren't depicted as being 2/3rds the height of humans. They're only slightly shorter than elves.
As for combat movement, the dwarf can use a minor action of 3 yards plus a major charge action for a total movement of 4 yards. The elf can move as a minor 7 yards and a charge at 3 for a total of 10 yards. If you deliberately make combats only happen within 4 yards then sure, the dwarf won't be penalised. Anything more than 4 yards means the Dwarf requires 2 rounds to get into combat whilst the elf is already there.
it also means that any enemy that stays more than 4 yards from the dwarf will never get charged by him and can thus skirt around to get to the mage at the back. The elf with a potential 10 yard charge range has a 250% increase in its threat radius making that very difficult. Which makes the dwarf a very bad warrior on the offense or defence, whilst the elf is great in both.
Loswaith wrote:The issue itself isnt with Dwarves and Elves, the issue you are (in general sence not specifically to one person) having is the way armour effects the movement rules, as only when it comes to heavy armour do people seem to take the bigest issue.
Armour affects in a flat rate, rather than a percentage effect.
Full plate reduces speed for each race differently, as shown below:
Flat rate is a simpler rule however than having percentages.
If you want a simple solution make elves 10 movement same as humans and you no longer have that 4 yard disparity between dwarves and elves.
Given the rules as well there is always the possiblity of having 3 Dex starting on the dwarf and -1 on the elf, making their movements the same and the poor Human slower than both.
Absolutely. The way armour interacts with Speed is one of the central problems. But even if you remove that completely, the dwarf has a 12 yard threat zone whilst the elf has an 18 yard (or 19 for a city elf) threat zone which still means that unless you specifically tailor the encounters so that they always happen within 12 yards, the dwarf will still be worse at every aspect of the job.
As for the argument of improbability, well that's actually arguing using skewed data and thus irrelevant to the discussion. Your argument then falls back to 'well dwarves wouldn't suck so much if they had improbably rolled starting statistics'. Which can be applied to any character 'well my mage wouldn't suck so much in lore tests if he inadvertantly rolled 4 for Cunning.'
Averages are used for a reason, everyone is on an even footing. The elf has an equal chance of rolling 4 Dex as the dwarf does.
The same problem ensues - the dwarf has starting move 12, reduced to 7 whilst the elf has starting speed 16, reduced to 11 - 1 pt lower than an unencumbered dwarf.
So although the effect armour has on Speed is definitely important, the mere fact that there is a 4 Dex or 8 level difference in base speed between an elf and a dwarf is disproportionately important.