Disarm Stunt

[Bill]

I love the Stunt system! One question though:

Disarm seems terribly powerful. Shouldn't it be a 5-6 point stunt?

Just wondering what othe rpeople think.

[lordmalachdrim]

not really since most will have more then one weapon availible and it's only a minor action to draw it. Plus it's only useful against those that need to carry a weapon. Against a wolf or such, not so useful.

[Krovikan]

not really since most will have more then one weapon availible and it's only a minor action to draw it. Plus it's only useful against those that need to carry a weapon. Against a wolf or such, not so useful.

My group hates blight wolves that nasty lol

[Bill]

Sure, but disarming a skilled warrior should not be that easy.
Kind of silly if every battle between two warriors involved a half dozen disarms and back up weapons to be drawn.

Just saying it seems too effective. I think the stunt point cost should be 4+ so it is at least only 50/50 likely to occur on a double.

I am just wary of fancy combat tricks that end up dominating battles. I don't want players to feel that disarm is the most effective way to beat a swordsman. Disarming should be very rare or very difficult; right now its common and easy.

[Iltsuger]

This might be slightly off-topic, but I wonder if one way to keep people from relying on the same talent over and over again would be to say that during one battle at least, the point cost for everything you've already done increases by 1 point for every time you've used it (up to 2 points per type of thing, perahps).

It might sound cool that people get to pick from a bunch of things, but if they wind up having a favorite there's not much variety, at least from some min maxers.

Specifically about the disarm, you might want to bump up the cost if it's being overused. I doubt it would mess up the game and it'd feel a lot less overpowered for you.

[Bill]

Probably a good idea to increase the sp cost, as that would also fill the 'void' that no stunt costs 5-6. So repeating that favorite uber stunt would get more diffucult but you can do it a few times.

[Drew D Scott]

not really since most will have more then one weapon availible and it's only a minor action to draw it.

It's a minor action to draw but a major action to use, which means you effectively neuter your opponent for that round. If you manage to do the same again (something which occured in the first test combat I ran) then the fight becomes lopsided pretty fast.

I'd personally give disarming a 6 SP cost. Anything less is too good.

[Bill]

I might test it out as a 4 and bump up to 5 or 6 if it ends up being a problem.

Also, I plan to have the Dragon Die be a fourth die. I actually prefer that for two reasons.
one, its 'cleaner' to be ignoring the dragon die unless you need it that roll.

two, for margin of success, I think the dragon die needs to not be one of the die used for your to hit roll.

[jaguar451]

Also, I plan to have the Dragon Die be a fourth die. I actually prefer that for two reasons.
one, its 'cleaner' to be ignoring the dragon die unless you need it that roll.

two, for margin of success, I think the dragon die needs to not be one of the die used for your to hit roll.

I like the idea elsewhere that the stunt points from the Dragon Die can't be more than the amount the roll beat the target number.

[Bill]

That sounds good, but will favor the skilled over the unskilled severely.
An issue of how much you want to weight chance vs skill.

[Zapp]

I like the idea elsewhere that the stunt points from the Dragon Die can't be more than the amount the roll beat the target number.

This sounds like a clean and simple solution to the "you can only succeed spectacularly at difficult tasks" issue.

[discuit]

In our 5 hour session (3 combats) tonight disarm was used a lot...and i mean A LOT! We agreed to play another full session with it RAW, but if it ends up the same as tonight, we'll definately up its cost.

[jc_madden]

I predict running into similar problems with Skirmish, move someone off a cliff lately?! Our group LOVES epic locations for our fights so there's always hazzards like fire, lava, bridges, pits, etc, so the I predict the oh so cheap Skirmish gets used a ton.

Some sort of save mechanic for insta-death situation would be nice. I'd probably just rule a TN 10 Dexterity check to land prone adjacent to the hazzard.

For Disarm it's not so simple since relative level of skill of combatants is a factor, maybe opposed weapon roles? That's kinda clunk and it would shaft the attacker out of their SP but maybe it's worth it?

[Ryngard]

I don't see the problem. Your characters should feel like heroes. Most of the mooks they fight will die in a hit or two anyway. No need to bog down the game with house rules and mods.

Also, whats good for the goose is good for the gander... disarm them a few times and then maybe it'll become more rare..?

It is actually fairly easy to disarm someone. Hell, watch any movie or tv show with fight scenes and it happens. A LOT.

Princess Bride??? How many times were Inigo and Westley disarmed in their duel? Several each.

Tons of other examples.

Just play and be happy!

Oh and if you have an EPIC swordsman that you dont want disarmed, then give him a talent or item that blocks it.

[Kobold Wisdom]

You could also rule that in order to perform the Disarm your Dragon Die has to be equal to the highest die ~or~ the highest die in your roll. Call it Dragon Die Dominance or DDD or 3D for short. It's a nice flavor element that requires the Dragon Die to be dominant in order to perform the maneuver. You might get an odd effect where a Disarm will always be accompanied by another stunt (based on the requirement of a higher roll) but it does make some kind of sense that after a disarm you follow up with a Lightning Attack or a Knock Prone.

Using Dragon Die Dominance or increasing the cost of Disarm seem like the best way to handle this. I would be reluctant to require another roll as it would seem to go against the "WOOHOO!!" effect of Dragon Dice and Stunting.

[Bill]

Tastes may vary, but too many disarms seems silly to me.

Dark Fantasy, not Princess Bride

[PaintOnASign]

You could also make it a "possible" disarm. Perhaps make it an opposed check? This seems overly complicated, but just food for thought:

Strength/Dexterity (Weapon Focus*) vs Strength/Dexterity (Weapon Focus*)

Depending on the weapon the PC and NPC are using, it would be a Strength or Dexterity check, as Heavy Blade is a Strength focus and Light Blade is a Dexterity focus.

* The focus applied would be any weapon focus they may have, and only if the current weapon they are wielding falls into that focus.

For example, PC Drake wielding a Bastard Sword, with the Heavy Blade focus, while he's fighting NPC Goon, wielding a Dagger with an Axe focus.

When he attempts to disarm, the opposed check would be:

Strength (Heavy Blade) vs Dexterity

The NPC gets no focus bonus because he's only trained in Axes, and he's currently using a dagger.

I figure if someone has a focus in a weapon group, they have trained themselves in disarming others with it, or protecting themselves from being disarmed.

Overall, it even seems complicated for me, but it makes the most sense. Perhaps get rid of the Focus deal entirely and just do opposed Attribute checks. Besides, you could just waste SP if you fail, but at least it makes the disarm more satisfying if it works.

[discuit]

I don't see the problem. Your characters should feel like heroes. Most of the mooks they fight will die in a hit or two anyway. No need to bog down the game with house rules and mods.

Um, this doesnt make sense as mooks still have a fair chance of generating 2 SP's and thus doing this to the "heroes" all day long. After it happens ofr the 2nd or 3rd time in a scene your players WILL get frustrated...trust me.

Also, whats good for the goose is good for the gander... disarm them a few times and then maybe it'll become more rare..?

Huh? Why would it become more rare?

It is actually fairly easy to disarm someone. Hell, watch any movie or tv show with fight scenes and it happens. A LOT.

Princess Bride??? How many times were Inigo and Westley disarmed in their duel? Several each.

Is it easy? Everytime the topic of disarming people comes up on other forums a hundred martially trained or combat experienced folks pop up saying that it is very, very, very, VERY hard to disarm an opponent. Just saying.

I don't think it is broken, and won't say anything of the kind until we have had at least 2-3 more sessions. I trust the playtesters and designers played there game a hell of lot more than i have had teh chance before coming up with these values.

If however it continues to bother us, there is no need for all these complex houserules imho, simply make it cost more SP, and thus occur less? Easy.

[discuit]

I'd probably just rule a TN 10 Dexterity check to land prone adjacent to the hazzard.

Or to catch the ledge on the way down!

[Zapp]

I suggest the Stunt Cost of Disarm is set at the highest of the Strength and Dexterity scores of the opponent (but still minimum 2).

This way, nothing really changes for disarming common thugs (say, an Avvarian Hunter or a Fereldan Brigand) but it becomes more expensive to disarm more fearsome creatures (4 points for a Hurlock, for instance).

As you increase in levels, I'm assuming increasingly dangerous foes will become impossible to disarm (once your Str or Dex is 7+) unless you can decrease the stunt cost through your class.

More importantly, it will decrease the frequency of NPCs disarming player characters (because PCs carrying weapons will quickly gain Str/Dex scores above 2, if not already at start).

[Reef]

I suggest the Stunt Cost of Disarm is set at the highest of the Strength and Dexterity scores of the opponent (but still minimum 2).

This way, nothing really changes for disarming common thugs (say, an Avvarian Hunter or a Fereldan Brigand) but it becomes more expensive to disarm more fearsome creatures (4 points for a Hurlock, for instance).

As you increase in levels, I'm assuming increasingly dangerous foes will become impossible to disarm (once your Str or Dex is 7+) unless you can decrease the stunt cost through your class.

More importantly, it will decrease the frequency of NPCs disarming player characters (because PCs carrying weapons will quickly gain Str/Dex scores above 2, if not already at start).

That's my favourite solution so far. Allows for some opponents to be more difficult to disarm than others, and yet doesn't add any more extra rolls to the mix. Nice.

[Iltsuger]

Princess Bride was a comedy... might ruin the mood a bit :)

[PaintOnASign]

I suggest the Stunt Cost of Disarm is set at the highest of the Strength and Dexterity scores of the opponent (but still minimum 2).

This way, nothing really changes for disarming common thugs (say, an Avvarian Hunter or a Fereldan Brigand) but it becomes more expensive to disarm more fearsome creatures (4 points for a Hurlock, for instance).

As you increase in levels, I'm assuming increasingly dangerous foes will become impossible to disarm (once your Str or Dex is 7+) unless you can decrease the stunt cost through your class.

More importantly, it will decrease the frequency of NPCs disarming player characters (because PCs carrying weapons will quickly gain Str/Dex scores above 2, if not already at start).

Although currently not a problem, my issue with this solution is that by the time Str and Dex for enemies do reach 7+, the disarm stunt is rendered absolutely impossible, assuming of course, that there's no way to lower the cost. I prefer to have the option open for everyone to use, or attempt to use.

[Zapp]

Although currently not a problem, my issue with this solution is that by the time Str and Dex for enemies do reach 7+, the disarm stunt is rendered absolutely impossible, assuming of course, that there's no way to lower the cost. I prefer to have the option open for everyone to use, or attempt to use.

Well, my point was that at such time, only qualified heroes (with talents etc to lower the stunt cost) will be able to disarm the mightiest foes.

The very point of my system is, after all, so that just about anybody can't disarm everyone else (and the warrior PCs in particular). That's, like, the whole point of this thread!

(And by that I don't intend to be snarky; only that it sounds like the original rule will work great for you)

[Reef]

I suggest the Stunt Cost of Disarm is set at the highest of the Strength and Dexterity scores of the opponent (but still minimum 2).

This way, nothing really changes for disarming common thugs (say, an Avvarian Hunter or a Fereldan Brigand) but it becomes more expensive to disarm more fearsome creatures (4 points for a Hurlock, for instance).

As you increase in levels, I'm assuming increasingly dangerous foes will become impossible to disarm (once your Str or Dex is 7+) unless you can decrease the stunt cost through your class.

More importantly, it will decrease the frequency of NPCs disarming player characters (because PCs carrying weapons will quickly gain Str/Dex scores above 2, if not already at start).

Although currently not a problem, my issue with this solution is that by the time Str and Dex for enemies do reach 7+, the disarm stunt is rendered absolutely impossible, assuming of course, that there's no way to lower the cost. I prefer to have the option open for everyone to use, or attempt to use.

Well, you could always cap the stunt point cost at 6.