Magic in the RPG

[_x_]

I've made this to deal with a specific topic, that of magic in the rpg.

Now, there is precious little that can be, IMO interpreted by the rules regarding magic in the setting. For instance, warging and the like can be done pretty simply. But things like Melisandre does, Thoros, etc are not as simple. Also, there are hints throughout the book of other sorcerous events having taken place, such as Stormsinging/Stormsingers, etc.

Even if Book 5 is released in time for its contents to be digested and added into this rpg, I doubt it will have all the revelations neede to actually make a lgitimate chapter on magic along with neeeded information on rules. (with the possible exception of the faceless men...but even then I doubt it since we wont be seeing much of Arya)

I also think the way GR handled magic in the Black Company rpg, while quite well recieved, does not suit ASOIAF at ALL. ASOIAF IMO requires a codifiedand structured form of magic, that of specific spells and rituals, rather than make it up as you go. For what I precieved, magic was a skill that was taught, in a ritualized and structured way, or handed down from someone, not something someone was born with or bumbled through on their own. For instance, Mirriz Maz Durknew what she was doing right from the moment she met Dany. Her 'curse' was planned very carefully in accordance with the dark knowledge she possessed, and executed through the spell she cast; she did not just make it up at the last moment.

Even minor acts of sorcery, like the illusions and tricks of the faceless men are also taught and trained, in a formal and institutionalized manner.

(Note Warging is something that can probably be classified as something instictive, and not rigid, that a character can somehow be born with rather than learn. So it could be depicted using simplistic rules, such as for the Balck COmpany rpg. Still even then there isa difference between a warg such as Jon, and a highly skilled and powerful warg such as varamyr Six Skins)

In the end, my rambling basically means that I see a dilema in the making here:

On one hand I hope GR will be able to develop magic systems to cover the various types of magic we see, instead of simply making one informal chart type system that can be adjusted willy-nilly on the fly (as in black company),or make something extremely rigid and limiting like GoO did.

But in order to do so, they will really need to have a long chat with Mr. Martin, as the information in the books right now is not sufficient (except maybe for warging). Knowing Martin though, he will not be willing to divulge such technical information, because as quoted before he does not want to state something he may wish to change later in the remaining books.

So what exactly does GR plan to do here, and what do fans think should be the path taken?

[300lbs Gorrilla]

So what exactly does GR plan to do here, and what do fans think should be the path taken?

Not let players have the option to cast magic. Have it a Major NPC option only.

A radical approach. Probably the most unpopular one. But for me- letting players take on a magic character will make the game unbalanced for the payers...maybe not unbalanced but certainly lose its flavour.

Having it open could possibly mean that you could have two maybe three people wanting to play a magic user. Magic ASoIaF is suppose to be rare and mysterious. Strip that away leaves a important part of the books on the floor.

[SnowDog]

That's the way it was done in Praedor (a Finnish fantasy RPG). Some people didn't like it but it was more than welcome idea to me.

[_x_]

But that statement (disallow players magic) seems to make an assumption that said players will not have read the books; a pretty bold statement considering that most people who play the rpg will have read the books, and as such I doubt there will ever be more than one player per group, IF that, who will want to play a magic user.

Also, some types of magic, such as warging and the charms employed by the faceless men, do not seem to be THAT uncommon. Its not hard to pretend that the main characters (jon, rob, arya, etc) are pc's, with Grrm the narrator and the entire ASOIAF a large and epic campaign.

[Steve Kenson]

This is one of the (many) topics we're discussing. I think it's safe to say at this early stage the game system will touch on magic in the setting and there will be rules for it, but we'll also aim to keep magic as mysterious, rare, and, well... magical as it is in the books.

[higgins]

So what exactly does GR plan to do here, and what do fans think should be the path taken?

Not let players have the option to cast magic. Have it a Major NPC option only.

A radical approach. Probably the most unpopular one. But for me- letting players take on a magic character will make the game unbalanced for the players...maybe not unbalanced but certainly lose its flavour.

I'd point out that the GM always have the option to make that desicion even if there are rules for magic. Maybe it should be one of the options in the book -- to encourage the GM making that desicion if he feels it is right. But having no rules at all is not a good solution.

Having it open could possibly mean that you could have two maybe three people wanting to play a magic user. Magic ASoIaF is suppose to be rare and mysterious. Strip that away leaves a important part of the books on the floor.

This is true, all right. One can never hope that all his players want to (or will) be true to the books.

But still, more improtant than determing who can wield magic, would be to stress when would be appropriate to wield magic. If properly explained that there will be no everyday magic whatsoever, it would probably drive most people off it anyway. No fancy fireworks, no mind control, no healing wounds -- in Westeros, magic is used to accomplish only things with big magnitude. I would have no problem with all my players using magic for a greater effect at some point of the story, especially considering that having PC's as a "standard adventuring party" would be silly in Westeros. People will not alwyas be hanging out together and this alone would ease the concentration of magic. I wouldn't have problem with them using it together also, but the price of magic still has to be paid...

So, the question isn't really "who?", it's "when, where and why?".

[Rand]

As far as I can tell, magic is always rare and mysterious, and terrific, but beyond these commons elements, I see 3 kinds of magic.

Sorcery is ritual magic, it has a high cost to learn and to use, but is very powerful and the effect are beyond coincidence. I mean that can't be explained without magic. This are the shape shifting abilities of faceless killers, Melisandre shadows, Miri Maz Dur "resurrection", Thoros flaming swords, and so on...
Sorcery is, I think, the easiest to design, as it is spell bound. Designing magic is only designing a mere list of spells, with requirement, costs and effects. Of courses there's a need to restrict a player from knowing all the spells, and it should be interesting for the GM to have guidelines to create new spells and effects. We've seen that in other RPG before, and it's not that different than any other sword and sorcery universe.
Still there's and obvious need to remove any power/magic point system, or any spell slots system and to replace this by a darker cost, so cost for each use of magic that will make the player wonder if he will use the spell or not. Because spirits and powers won't work for free.

Gifts on the other side, are abilities that goes beyond the usual thinks, but that are merely an incredible mass of coincidences. I mean no visual effects, no proof, but the power is real. Bran his a Warg, but a septic master could state his only ability is to dream he's a wolf, and that, by chance only, the wolf do as Bran dreamt... And we could say the same with the ability to foretell the future, which is usually cryptic and subject to more than one interpretation... I think reading through the books would bring us other abilities belong greenseer, warging, and prophecies. Just like this young boy Baelor names as a High Septon and who was known to heal wounds by laying hand.
For me, Gift are innate, You have them or you don't, but you cannot become a Warg if you're not born as one. Training doesn't help much, and it's I think the main difference with sorcery. Another difference is that you don't control the power as much as it controls you. Sometimes, you don't choose to use it, and it becomes active by itself. The "spellcasting" is intuitive.
So I think this gift should be only attributed at creation, or during special character transformations (like loosing legs) with GM approval. There should be a skill to gain control on the power, but I don't think there should be absolute control. The GM can always activate the power to fit the story, and the player shall not be certain that he has control over it...
And this is especially true for fortune telling and foreseeing: Usually powers like dreams are used by the GM to give the player hints on things, but not by the player to investigate or understand. So it's usually a power to help the GM, and not the player, and hence asking the player to spend times and experience point developing it seems quite hypocrite.

Miracles at last, are unusual events, induced by a specific character, at a specific time, and with absolutely no control of anybody on it. That's an incarnation of Fate itself. You can't make it on demand, and you can't make twice the same. That's obviously the dragons awakening for Daenerys, but there's other illustrations of theses. We have Baelor the Blessed walking unharmed though the snakepit. We have Catelyn praying for Bran to stay in Winterfell and bran staying there after falling from the tower.
Miracle are created and controlled by the GM, and are created in the way that best fit the story. But Miracles come from characters faith. Dany knows for sure that dragons are alive; Baelor and Cat share the belief that the sevens watch over their children...
Likewise I think the player should trust the GM.
I think this kind of effects can be design in a role-playing system. Here is an example: When the character have a deep faith in something, the player gives some experience point (or whatever else valuable, like burning is old friends) when the players need a miracle, the GM looks at the point he have, at the story, and at his inspiration. (Is there a tenth muse for rpg?) Then he decides whether he has enough points to perform a Miracle for the player or whether he prefers not to do so. If he does, he will burn as much "faith points" he would like to build a miracle as spectacular as he think he should. Of course, there should be a few guidelines and rules to help the GM, but in the end, it will rely on trust between the player and the game master, and of the mood of the game master. I think that should be perfect to simulate the trust a character might put in the power-that-be, and the mood-shift of those powers...
And as a mater of fact, this mechanism seems to be a perfect way to handle curses.

I hope this will help.
And by the way, what are the many topics you're discussing? I'm sure there's a lot of people here who would be glad to brainstorm on them. (Even if like all the storms it would produce a lot noise and confusion...)

[300lbs Gorrilla]

All of the above is valid points and things that where thought of. The question was asked and that is what I'd like. It is just personal preference. There are enough fantasy games to get your jiggy on with magic. Having it "officially" off limits is just something I'd like to see. I know I can house rule it out...but I don't even want my players to see how it works or the like. Keeping it a total mystery.

I never said "don't" have magic...magic is a important element in ASoIaF. I'd just like to see the rules in another supplement...like a dedicated magic book (Though I doubt you could fill a whole book unless your willing to pull a Mongoose RQ) But more like a section in a GM guide type book. It doesn't prevent anyone from reading it...but it is a barrier. Where the core book will be bought by all...the GM book will be bought by a more specific group.

Many rpg's have rules designed around the setting. To me this is no different. Keeping magic mysterious and rare...does more for the setting than keeping it open.

[higgins]

On the other hand, if there is a player request for playing magic users, many people would be tempted to make the magic rules by themselves. I did my own magic rules for the New World of Darkness because I needed them before even Werewolf was out (and Mage came after that).

But I figure we can just settle that we have different opinions about that issue.

[Rand]

I perfectly understand the need not to allow players to read magic rules. I agree with that.
More than that, I think that even for "magician" PC, the magic application and rule should be known and performed only by the gamemaster.
I want my characters to use magic, but I want them to keep a sense of wonder about it, not to consider that as a mundane dice roll or math formula.

So Yes, Magic should be off limit.

But still, I trust my player enought to know that they won't read the GM chapters of the book unless I ask them to do so.
I think you can't play intrigue RPG if you don't trust you players, or if they don't trust the gamemaster.

[higgins]

So Yes, Magic should be off limit.

When I see the phrase "off limit", I think of it as "no player character will never-ever be allowed to conciously cause a magical effect" and I simply cannot agree with this.

I perfectly understand the need not to allow players to read magic rules. I agree with that.
More than that, I think that even for "magician" PC, the magic application and rule should be known and performed only by the gamemaster.
I want my characters to use magic, but I want them to keep a sense of wonder about it, not to consider that as a mundane dice roll or math formula.

But if you put it this way, I totally agree with you.

I think you can't play intrigue RPG if you don't trust you players, or if they don't trust the gamemaster.

So true, so true.

[bishop026]

Assuming GR is still taking a poll, I'd like the game to reflect GRRM's superlative book series.

But, for those who want the option of more magic and mythological monsters, maybe a supplement could be in the woks?

Best,

Bishop