Trip and Disarm

[Zulgyan]

I know this is an old discusion. But how did you house ruled the trip and disarm issue? You know, without AoOs, these manuevers seem quite pointless.

I know that some houseruled that Improved Trip allows you to use the manouver as move action.

Has anyone done things diferently?

[timemrick]

Avoiding the AoO was only part of these feats' benefits in d20. The True20 versions still give a bonus on the opposed roll, and I.D. still avoids the counter-disarm attempt if you fail, so I'd hardly call them pointless. And unlike d20, neither has any prerequisites.

[Warzen]

Avoiding the AoO was only part of these feats' benefits in d20. The True20 versions still give a bonus on the opposed roll, and I.D. still avoids the counter-disarm attempt if you fail, so I'd hardly call them pointless. And unlike d20, neither has any prerequisites.

Yes, the "no counter disarm" makes this feat (Improved disarm) a must if not a prerequisite for any fighter wanting to disarm anybody.

W.

[Zulgyan]

I you disarm your opponent in your turn, he will then pick up his weapon in his turn as a move action, and attack you as a standart action. This makes your disarm manuever pointless.
The same thing happens with trip.

I'm not taking about the feat but about the combat option.
You waste your turn if you dsarm an opponene, because he can simply pick up his weapon again and attack you without mayor problem.

[DnDChick]

Well, if nothing else you at least made them burn a move action.

[Zulgyan]

That's not a real trade for a direct attack. Disarm and Trip are underpowered.

[langeweile]

if you are tripped, you lose your next (one) move action.

picking up a weapon requires two (move) actions (1: move to your dropped weapon 2: pick it up).

[Zulgyan]

disarmed weapon fall in disarmed-guy's square. There is no need to move to go fech it.

[Warzen]

disarmed weapon fall in disarmed-guy's square. There is no need to move to go fech it.

Zulgyan, where did you read this ?

[edit] Ok, in BR it's crystal clear.

W.

[langeweile]

above was a suggestion for a houserule, so that it drops 10 feet away - whoop, you're done.

[Zulgyan]

above was a suggestion for a houserule, so that it drops 10 feet away - whoop, you're done.

That doesn't look realist. I should take tremendous strenght to disarm AND ALSO make the weapon fly so far.
And it isn't so nice mechanically speaking.

We'll a find a more proper solution soon...

[Zulgyan]

(House Rule)
TRIP AND DISARM – OPORTUNITY STRIKE:
Whenever you trip an opponent, if he tries to stand up in your threatened square in his next turn, you and any other other ally that is threatening that foe may attack him by using a “oportunity strike”. This an extra attack attack is resolved normaly.
Whenever you disarm an opponent, if he tries to pick up his weapon in your threatened square in his next turn, you and any other other ally that is threatening that foe may attack him by using a “oportunity strike”. This an extra attack attack is resolved normaly.

[langeweile]

you hell like the mess of aoo, don't you ?

sorry, if you want crunch, then play d&d / vanilla d20. oversimulation is the death of every rpg, which is replaced diablo style hack'n'slay.
if you can live with a little more narrative, easy resolve mechanics - have fun with blue rose and true20...

[KyleC]

(House Rule)
TRIP AND DISARM – OPORTUNITY STRIKE:
Whenever you trip an opponent, if he tries to stand up in your threatened square in his next turn, you and any other other ally that is threatening that foe may attack him by using a “oportunity strike”. This an extra attack attack is resolved normaly.
Whenever you disarm an opponent, if he tries to pick up his weapon in your threatened square in his next turn, you and any other other ally that is threatening that foe may attack him by using a “oportunity strike”. This an extra attack attack is resolved normaly.

If I were to use this house rule, I probably would add to it a rule being discussed in the reach weapon thread, namely that if a character takes an opportunity strike against a fallen opponent, it uses up their next standard action.

-KyleC

[Zulgyan]

you hell like the mess of aoo, don't you ?

sorry, if you want crunch, then play d&d / vanilla d20. oversimulation is the death of every rpg, which is replaced diablo style hack'n'slay.
if you can live with a little more narrative, easy resolve mechanics - have fun with blue rose and true20...

First, try not to speak in an agressive tone.
Second, if a single rule change gets in the way of your narrative, I am doubting about your roleplaying skills.

[FickleGM]

I give the Improved Trip feat the added benefit of making the maneuver a Move action (instead of a Standard action), which allows for a followup attack against the tripped opponent. The same benefit could also be granted to the Improved Disarm feat.

This adds a roll to the round, but does not put an AoO mechanic back in the game.

Other than having friends to attack the prone opponent or grab his weapon, I don't know what else can be done.

[Warzen]

Other than having friends to attack the prone opponent or grab his weapon, I don't know what else can be done.

Disarm him without a weapon, you'll end up with the weapon.

W.

[Wrathx]

I fixed this issue by making pickup a weapon in combat a standard action opposed to a move action

[Spectral Knight]

As written, these maneuvers can be a little frustrating. For one thing, few people are stupid enough to just bend down and pick up their weapon with an armed opponent within striking distance. For another, getting up after being knocked down isn't as fast as the rules make it out to be, particularly with someone with a sword standing over you just waiting for your neck to be level with their best backhand stroke. But that's how the rules are written.

Improved Disarm is easy enough to fix. Picking up your weapon is a move action, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to Defense unless you take a standard action to 'distract' your opponent, so he's not breathing down your neck while it's in the perfect head-chopping position. Perhaps a good use for the houseruled Improved Trip? Or maybe you could do a little disarming of your own to take their pointy-thing away and use it on them? It's always fun to turn the tables...

Improved Trip is a little harder, but here's one way: the tripped party rolls a Reflex save (DC 15+opponent's Strength bonus), losing one move action upon success and a full round action on a failure. Never underestimate the shock of suddenly and unexpectedly hitting the ground. It's both disorienting and painful, besides the inconvenience of having to get up again.

And remember that prone characters have a penalty to their defense... A certain amount of rolling around on the ground dodging strikes might be necessary until someone distracts your opponent.

I'm currently writing a Thow feat that requires the Improved Trip feat. Same effect, only the Throw does damage as well, and puts you safely out of range of any meanness your opponent might want to visit upon you for embarrassing him! And there's always the 'Fun With Terrain' matter of throwing opponents into walls...

Okay, it's a bit more mechanic-heavy. But better than having the feats considered useless, and it accomodates the storytelling of fights a little better, as there are now some real consequences for getting that 'butterfingers' feeling or knocked on your butt.