Reach Weapons

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Reach Weapons

Postby Zulgyan » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:37 pm

Reach Weapons are gone.
How would you house rule to include them?
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Postby langeweile » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:40 pm

by not giving a damn...
normally, each weapons are equal - the narrator may rule certain bonies or penalties under special circumstances.

really... get away from over tactical d&d wargame-tabletop combat and go back to narrating ! or skip true20 and play on tabletops...
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Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:46 am

Came up with a solution.

You gain AoOs with reach weapons as you would in d20. But if you use that attack, you can only make a move action during your turn.

The effect of this rule is to give reach weapons "first strike", even when losing iniciative.

You do not increase the number of dice rolled, keeping up the speed of the game
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Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:15 am

Reach Weapon Stats:

Marcial Two-Handed:
Glaive: +4 Dmg +4 Crit
Guisarme: +3 Dmg +4Crit
Ranseur: +3 Dmg +4 Crit

Exotic TwoHanded:
Chain, Spiked: +3 dmg +3Crit [/b]

I know that according to dmg convertion rules, dmg for Guisarm, Ranseur and Chain should be +2, but I pumped up to +3 because under True20 rules and my "first strike" rule, the would be underpowered.
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Postby Nikdo » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:10 am

The way I house rule reach weapons is as follows:

Reach Weapons
Some weapons have reach. This means that they can be used from a "safer" distance and can be used from behind low obstacles or over the shoulder of an ally (i.e. from the second rank). The Ganging Up option with reach weapons allows more than eight attackers.


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Postby langeweile » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:28 am

first strike is a nice idea - as well as gaining a +2 cover bonus in certain circumstances.

in situation, where one has a normal and one a reach weapon, and the circumstances focus one "range", the other one will simple get a -2 to hit.
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Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:32 am

Would you clarify that please?
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:57 am

langeweile wrote:first strike is a nice idea - as well as gaining a +2 cover bonus in certain circumstances.

in situation, where one has a normal and one a reach weapon, and the circumstances focus one "range", the other one will simple get a -2 to hit.


You could also rule that the "short weapon" attacker needs a succesfull attack to close the gap done by the reach weapon. Of course such an attack doesn't do any damage and the "reach weapon" attacker has either the choise to do the same type of attack to fall back a little bit reabling the gap or purely attacking the other guy if possible (not every reach weapon can attack at close range, exampe: most polearms).

I'm pretty sure this rule was used in Stormbringer RPG.

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Postby langeweile » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:17 pm

@zul - examples:

crowd fight in an inn - bad for a reach weapon, so -2 to hit.

long, narrow corridor - bad to close in with a short weapon, so -2 to hit.
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Postby DnDChick » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:48 pm

Hmm ... that "first strike" idea is quite a nice replacement for AOOs. My players actually voiced concern over no AOOs in True20.

The first strike option puts a little of that back in. It also solves the "lone hero running past a line of archers before the archers can shoot him" if you extend the first strike option to ranged attacks as well.



To restate:

When a character enters an opponent's threatened area, the opponent has the option of making a first strike. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as the standard action for that round for the character making the first strike.


I will propose this to my group tonight to see what they think.
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:59 pm

DnDChick wrote:To restate:

When a character enters an opponent's threatened area, the opponent has the option of making a first strike. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as the standard action for that round for the character making the first strike.


That means that the guy going to contact is sure to be attacked before being able to attack. This defeat the purpose of charging if the opponent has not already spent his standard action for the round.

You may face problem where nobody wants to be the one going in contact with the other, where everybody is delaying his action to the max.
Only archers or casters will put some pressure on the other side.

You may have to restate it this way:
When a character enters an opponent's threatened area without threatening the opponent, the opponent has the option of making a first strike. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as the standard action for that round for the character making the first strike.

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Postby DnDChick » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:10 pm

Hmm ... good point ... it's on the right track, but certainly bears some further consideration.
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Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:11 pm

That means that the guy going to contact is sure to be attacked before being able to attack. This defeat the purpose of charging if the opponent has not already spent his standard action for the round.

You may face problem where nobody wants to be the one going in contact with the other, where everybody is delaying his action to the max.
Only archers or casters will put some pressure on the other side.


If players are clever the will prefer to send the toughtest member of the to attack the Reach Weapon Wielder.

If you don't attack the RW Oponnet, the Reach Weapon opponent will attack you! And he will choose his oponent, that can be the weakest character in the party.

Then you can compare the choice of attacking him or not, in this way.

Option One, you try to attack first:
Step 1: He uses first strike.
Step 2: You attack him.
Step 3: He can't attack you again (already used his standart action).
Step 4: You attack him again. (This means you get 2 followed attacks!)

Option Two, you wait until he attacks you:
Step 1: He attacks you.
Step 2: You attack him.
Step 3: He attack you.
Step 4: You attack him.

Conclusion:
Option one: after 4 steps, he attacks once, you twice.
Option two: after 4 steps, he attacks twice, you twice.
Choose what you think is better for you.

The RW fighter has still an advantage: He always strikes first. That's the whole point.

Even if the RW fighter tries the First Attack+Reposition, the system works.

See...
You Try to attack first:
Step One: He uses first strike.
Step Two: You attack him.
Step 3: He moves 10 feet away.
Step 4: You aproach and he uses first strike.
Step 5: You attack him.
Step 6: He moves 10 feet away
Step 7: You aproach and he uses first strike.
Step 8: You attack him.

Now see the real sequence behind that one:
Step 1: He attacks you.
Step 2: You attack him.
Step 3: He attack you.
Step 4: You attack him.

Again...
You Try to attack first:
Step One: He uses first strike. / He attacks you
Step Two: You attack him. / You attack him
Step 3: He moves 10 feet away. /
Step 4: You aproach and he uses first strike. / He attack you
Step 5: You attack him. / You attack him
Step 6: He moves 10 feet away /
Step 7: You aproach and he uses first strike. / He attacks you
Step 8: You attack him. / You attack him


The whole point of the system is that RWF ALWAYS, strikes first.

Finally... what about party solidarity, courage, heroism? Do your players really try to save only their own ass, wating for others to take risks?

You may have to restate it this way:
When a character enters an opponent's threatened area without threatening the opponent, the opponent has the option of making a first strike. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as the standard action for that round for the character making the first strike.


Can't find the difference with my system. Please clarify.
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Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:52 pm

(House Rule)
FIRST STRIKE – REACH WEAPONS:
To make a “First Strike” attack, you must wield a reach weapon. As an opponent enters your threatened square, you may choose to strike him first with the “First Strike” option. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as your standard action for that round. This means that in your turn you will be restricted to a move action only (you may always spend a conviction point to get standart action, of course).
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Postby Warzen » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:20 am

Zulgyan wrote:
You may have to restate it this way:
When a character enters an opponent's threatened area without threatening the opponent, the opponent has the option of making a first strike. This is resolved like a normal attack, and counts as the standard action for that round for the character making the first strike.


Can't find the difference with my system. Please clarify.


The system worded by DnDChick was including regular melee weapon. A guy with a sword coming into contact with a guy with a dagger would suffer a first strike from the dagger guy.

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Postby FickleGM » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:50 am

I just go with the Ready action. If the PC engages an opponent with a reach weapon, three possible situations will present themselves:

1. The NPC is unaware: this takes away the advantage of the reach weapon as the PC can easily close.

2. The NPC is aware, but not suspecting: this goes straight to initiative and if the NPC cannot react fast enough, then the advantage of the reach weapon is removed.

3. The NPC is prepared for the PC, before the PC engages: in this case, I allow the NPC to use the Ready action to attack the PC the moment he enters the reach of the weapon.

If you can cover the ground in six seconds or less, then it is up to initiative to determine if the reach weapon is useful. If not, then the reach weapon wielder can Ready and action for when his opponent does enter his reach.

I'm sure that this method still leaves some holes, but it does not require any changes for me to use it. Just some food for thought.
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Postby Warbringer » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:58 pm

Tough one, because as noted True20 tends to negate the tactical implementaion of tbale top combat.

That said, opponents with "reach" strike first in combat if an enemy has to move to engage them in combat.

An opponent has reach it is a larger size category than you. By using a weapon with the "reach" description, you increase your effective size category by one for determining reach.

(Note, weapons are assumed to be size appropriate to the opponent. Thus, a hill giant with a pike is using a pike appropriate to his size)
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