Automatic & modern weapons

[wulf]

Hi
I'm about to start a True20 Stargate campaign as a continuation of our previous AEG-rules d20 campaign. I'm trying to ensure the actual gameplay changes are as smooth and transparent as possible, even though the numbers will be different (and a lot fewer of them!).

Has anyone else started using the True20 rules for a modern setting with intensive use of firearms? How do you handle automatic & semi-automatic weapons? How many new Feats are needed? Do you increase damage for multiple bullets, or give multiple shots? Does automatic fire give a bonus to hit, or multiple chances? If a woodchuck could chuck... erm... no, that's not relevant...

Any advice would be appreciated. Currently, as I'm not fixed on having one attack roll per target, I'm considering a simple rule for burst fire, you hit once per 4 full points by which the TN was exceeded in an attack, damage roll for each is normal, with +1 to hit per burst of 3 shots fired. Multiple targets use the normal rules. New Feats would include Firearms Training (W) (like Weapons training), Autofire Mastery (W) (without this you get -1 per burst after the first, not +1) and maybe Sharpshooter (W) (a catchall Sniper skill, involving aiming at location, doing extra damage, etc, for a penalty to hit).

Any opinions?

Wulf

EDIT: for clarity

[GoRocket]

What I would do is take a look at how D20 Modern deals with automatic fire, and extrapolate the combat rules from there, making changes where appropriate to allow for the differences between True20 and D20. Most of it is covered there, and you would only have to do a conversion.

If you want to model closely what is used in D20 Modern, you will need to figure out where the various gun-related feats will appear in your game. You could create a new category or put them in an existing category, such as Martial.

Our True20 setting makes use of such rules, and this is essentially what we have done within the framework of the True20 rules, although I should point out we made Guns a separate feat category, accessed via the Guns Training feat.

[wulf]

What I would do is take a look at how d20 Modern deals with automatic fire, and extrapolate the combat rules from there, making changes where appropriate to allow for the differences between True20 and D20. Most of it is covered there, and you would only have to do a conversion.

I don't have Modern, and I don't like most d20 systems (only True20, BESM d20 and Stargate/Spycraft, actually), so I'm reluctant to buy it just for this. Could you compare the Modern rules to Stargate/Spycraft 1.5, by any chance?

Wulf

[wulf]

I found the Modern SRD. But I don't like it...

Burst Fire gives a -4 to hit, but +2 dice damage (d6, I assume?). That seems counter-intuitive to me, surely a burst would make it EASIER to hit with at least one bullet? I remember this same argument at the Stargate/Spycraft board, but I wasn't aware d20 Modern did the same thing (only worse... Spycraft only gave a -1 penalty per burst, if I remember correctly).

Wulf

[GoRocket]

I found the Modern SRD. But I don't like it...

Burst Fire gives a -4 to hit, but +2 dice damage (d6, I assume?). That seems counter-intuitive to me, surely a burst would make it EASIER to hit with at least one bullet? I remember this same argument at the Stargate/Spycraft board, but I wasn't aware d20 Modern did the same thing (only worse... Spycraft only gave a -1 penalty per burst, if I remember correctly).

Wulf

The burst and autofire rules in D20 Modern are designed to use a single attack roll for any attack, so the damage model is representing hitting the target more than once on a burst. In our modification, we drop the penalty to -2 and the damage becomes a +1 bonus. The autofire rules represent covering an area with automatic fire, so everyone within that area needs to make a Reflex save to avoid automatically taking damage.

Those rules dovetail fairly nicely with True20 if you give them a chance. Making separate attack rolls for each bullet will most likely turn your games into a bloodbath, and not in a good way. Plus, all the rolling, yuck!

[wulf]

The burst and autofire rules in D20 Modern are designed to use a single attack roll for any attack, so the damage model is representing hitting the target more than once on a burst. In our modification, we drop the penalty to -2 and the damage becomes a +1 bonus.

Hmm. Only one attack roll, fine, but a PENALTY for firing a burst? Isn't part of the purpose of burst fire increasing the chance to hit by putting more bullets in the air around the target? And a flat +1 to damage? Some of the bullets will have a +4 damage as single shots. And shouldn't different forms of armour affect individual bullets, not one collective 'superbullet'?

Those rules dovetail fairly nicely with True20 if you give them a chance. Making separate attack rolls for each bullet will most likely turn your games into a bloodbath, and not in a good way. Plus, all the rolling, yuck!

I only intend one attack roll, but with one hit (and one damage roll) for every 4 points by which the attack exceeds the required TN, at normal damage. So, if a target has a Defence of 17, a roll of 26 makes 3 hits to roll damage for. The chances are you'll only be rolling at most one or two extra dice. And lower damage bonuses should make a bloodbath LESS likely.

The -2/+1 attack/damage is an abstraction level I'm not happy with.

Wulf

[GoRocket]

Hmm. Only one attack roll, fine, but a PENALTY for firing a burst? Isn't part of the purpose of burst fire increasing the chance to hit by putting more bullets in the air around the target? And a flat +1 to damage? Some of the bullets will have a +4 damage as single shots.

It's a +1 BONUS to damage, not +1 total damage, so you would add that to the existing damage bonus of the weapon. Perhaps I should have been more clear. Looking at it again, however, this may not be enough of a bonus to damage. It may change before final release.

As for the penalty, I don't know how much research you've done on firearms combat, but firers tend to be less accurate when firing on automatic. You are putting multiple shots into a confined space for the purpose of doing more damage, but this does not tend to make the firer more accurate. I can see where you're coming from here, but it's just not reflective of how things really work.

And shouldn't different forms of armour affect individual bullets, not one collective 'superbullet'?

If you want to make your game more complex, that's fine. Our rules, and those based on the D20 Modern model, assume multiple shots into one attack roll, and the defender does not apply his armor separately against each shot.

I only intend one attack roll, but with one hit (and one damage roll) for every 4 points by which the attack exceeds the required TN, at normal damage. So, if a target has a Defence of 17, a roll of 26 makes 3 hits to roll damage for. The chances are you'll only be rolling at most one or two extra dice. And lower damage bonuses should make a bloodbath LESS likely.

How are you going to handle weapons with 3-round bursts vs. 5-round bursts? I suppose you could put a cap on how much damage can be done, but it totally changes firearms combat. You have made what is normally an advantage (using less shots per burst) into a disadvantage (cap on damage), so consider the implications there.

Again, there is an awful lot of rolling going on for each attack, assuming the defender has armor. Also, what happens if you roll a crit? Does this add to each bullet as well?

[wulf]

It's a +1 BONUS to damage, not +1 total damage, so you would add that to the existing damage bonus of the weapon. Perhaps I should have been more clear. Looking at it again, however, this may not be enough of a bonus to damage. It may change before final release.

I did understand you meant an additional +1, not just a total +1, my phrasiology was poor. But even so, some automatic weapons have +4 damage, some +3, etc. And to give only (and always) +1 for what has to represent a second bullet strike seems very odd to me. And to have no difference to that damage whether you are wearing power armour or woad sounds wrong to me too.

As for the penalty, I don't know how much research you've done on firearms combat, but firers tend to be less accurate when firing on automatic.

But you ARE giving extra damage, which can only represent a second bullet strike. So you are saying it's harder to hit, but you'll always hit with two bullets? And even if you are less accurate in burst fire, you are getting three less accurate chances to hit (real life, not game terms), which ought to compensate. Basically, why would anyone USE automatic weapons if they are less likely to actually hit

EDIT: Incidentally, although I would give a +1 to hit bonus per burst fired, I still require a roll of 4 over the basic TN to hit with the second bullet. So unless you fire one hell of a lot of bullets to get the bonus, or had a very high chance to hit in the first place, you will still only hit with one bullet anyway, maybe two. So, in a way, my system is LESS deadly than yours...

How are you going to handle weapons with 3-round bursts vs. 5-round bursts?

Now there I'm perfectly happy with an abstraction. All my firearms fire 3-round bursts. Also, I'm intending this for Stargate. There, especially in season 1, using the MP5, it was common to see a half-dozen or more rounds hit a Jaffa before he would fall, so multiple bullet strikes and more accurate bursts are suitable to the source material.

Again, there is an awful lot of rolling going on for each attack, assuming the defender has armor. Also, what happens if you roll a crit? Does this add to each bullet as well?

Crits only affect the first bullet, that's another abstraction I'm happy with. They won't be cumulative with an increased damage from an autofire bonus, which I would think would be excessive on a single damage roll. Since a crit will also be a 20 (or sometimes 19, 18, etc) it will also very probably mean multiple bullet strikes, so that's a bonus.

Overall, this has been a useful conversation, if only to confirm to me I'm happy with my own ideas (ripped unceremonially from the Stargate rules)

Wulf

[GoRocket]

I think maybe you are missing a salient point of part of this discussion as well. In the D20 Modern system, as well as in our setting, you need the Burst Fire feat in order to even do this. And to get that, you first need the Autofire feat. So it's not like every character can make burst attacks.

Spending two feats on a single attack type should make the attack more effective. You take a slight penalty to attack (-10%) in exchange for an increased damage potential. In the current system (which will likely be changed before publication), you take the base damage and increase it by 1, modified for a crit (usually a +3 bonus on top of everything else). In D20 Modern, you get 2 extra dice of damage in exchange for a -4 penalty to hit.

Of course, such a conversion from D20 Modern to True20 has to take into consideration the differences between D20 and True20 damage resolution. Toughness save bonuses do not escalate at all in the standard rules, whereas D20 characters jump their hit points each level. One attack roll with one save (modified for armor) makes the most sense in this system.

I would be curious to see how your changes play in True20, however. Just because I chose to model our setting after the D20 Modern rules doesn't mean that's the only way to do it.

[wulf]

I think maybe you are missing a salient point of part of this discussion as well. In the D20 Modern system, as well as in our setting, you need the Burst Fire feat in order to even do this. And to get that, you first need the Autofire feat. So it's not like every character can make burst attacks.

Yes, I'm using Firearms Mastery and Autofire Mastery. You need Firearms Mastery to do anything other than 1 shot per action (I'm assuming anyone can point and shoot single bullets, since PCs will all be in the Stargate program), Autofire Mastery to use Burst or Saturation fire. My problem with your system (and d20 modern) is that it's a poor model of reality. It's good for mechanically imposing game balance, a concept I find unacceptable, and one of the things that I like about True20 - it makes a vastly better attempt to model reality rather than sinply create abstract but 'balanced' game rules.

Of course, such a conversion from D20 Modern to True20 has to take into consideration the differences between D20 and True20 damage resolution. Toughness save bonuses do not escalate at all in the standard rules, whereas D20 characters jump their hit points each level. One attack roll with one save (modified for armor) makes the most sense in this system.

It does, sort of, but in another way it doesn't. If you hit with lots of little bullets that individually couldn't penetrate armour, increasing the damage on a single damage roll is not realistic. In fact, you would survive far better with multiple weak damage rolls, even though having few damage levels compared to Hit Points means that you would fall faster if you DID get damaged. A +5 damage attack will kill more easily than 5 +1 attacks, even though there's a higher overall chance of the 5 attacks getting a kill result. I find the 5 die rolls more dramatic and climactic (and gives the players 5 chances to use up Conviction to stay alive).

Wulf

[Bhikku]

I hit on this same question myself, but when the Mutants & Masterminds site posted their preview of the 2nd edition combat rules, I was in heaven.

URL is: http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/super-vision/000213.php

In summary, a weapon with Autofire allows the hero to employ four different options: drilling a lot of shots into a single target, spreading shots across several targets, laying covering fire to protect a single ally, or laying suppression fire to inconvenience a single target. The rules for M&M are quite straightforward - for instance, driling a lot of shots into a single target means that whatever amount by which you beat the target's Defense becomes an increase on your damage bonus against the target (thus, increasing the target's Toughness save DC). With a caveat that if the target is immune to a single shot for whatever reason, it's immune to a mass of 'em. Simple and brilliant.

I've considered adding in a fifth option, from d20Modern: use autofire to affect all targets within a 10x10 area, as an area effect (Reflex save to avoid damage; my variation would probably have the DC equal 10 + combat bonus or ranged attack bonus).

As for feats, I wasn't anticipating requiring any feats to use Autofire, but that's based mostly on setting flavor. It might make sense that a character needs training to use autofire weapons competently - might divide Weapon Training into (martial) and (firearms), or make firearms martial weapons and make (autofire) an additional category - again, depending on the setting.

I've got no particular insight into bursts - i'm not planning on using burst rules unless as special features of particular weapons. For example, a gun that allows the use of burst fire for +2 to the damage (or more), but doubling what I call the "whammy range" for jams, misfires, and running out of ammo. ("Whammies" in my games are bad things that happen when you role a natural 1, or higher if there's an extended whammy range. This is what I use instead of tracking ammunition, and I often encourage my players to describe their own whammies during play. Obviously, I enjoy a very fast-and-loose approach to my games.)

The issue I see debated regarding the interaction of armor and extra hits - damage bonus vs multiple Toughness saves - is, I think, mathematically a non-issue (at least to a limited degree). If we were to assume that a target was hit by a long burst of, say, 20 bullets, and the armor provides protection against each and every one of these bullets, then either A. the GM rules the attack wholly ineffective because no shot has any hope of penetrating the armor (very rare) or B. the defender effectively rolls 20 Toughness saves - which statistically gives the same result as rolling a single save against a damage bonus that has been increased by +20.

In all probability, at least one of those saves would be the worst possible result, one would be the best possible, and most of the ups and downs woudl come out about even. Since we only care about the results that are under a certain figure, we simplify. (One difference: rolling twenty saves could conceivably accumulate a lot of Hurt results, skewing the results further toward losing Health levels and dying right away; rolling against a massive damage bonus makes autofire slightly less deadly - a character may go straight to dying, but not to dead.)

Make of that what you will, I guess.

[Nomad4life]

Wow! I really like those M&M2e autofire rules. I had ported the rules from the SWRPG to cover blasters, but I'm switching to these starting next game session!

EDIT: Quickly testing these rules out, I can see that this system might cause some confusion when determining how many actual rounds are fired in the attack. However, like you, I use a type of "ammo save" rather than tracking shots. In Star Wars (the game we're running) most weapons have 50 or more shots per clip anyway.

[Bhikku]

Quickly testing these rules out, I can see that this system might cause some confusion when determining how many actual rounds are fired in the attack. However, like you, I use a type of "ammo save" rather than tracking shots. In Star Wars (the game we're running) most weapons have 50 or more shots per clip anyway.

I'm not quite sure what you suspect to be a source of confusion - although here i'm assuming a standard number of shots fired for each round of autofire - in d20 Modern IIRC, it's always considered 10 shots spent, which is useful enough.

But much as I like abstraction and a bit of gun fu, I'd kind of like to ensure that two warriors equipped with the same rifle have a real choice to make between single shots and autofire - on a gun that uses only autofire, we can assume it's just proportionately heftier in the ammo department, but if Bert's careful shots roll an ammo failure while Ernie is spraying bullets across the landscape, it'll feel a bit silly. So here's a proposed system that should take care of that, attempting to balance a touch of realism (or at least sensibility) with the simplicity and abstraction that makes True 20 so attractive.

Each gun that's capable of Autofire (or perhaps only those that can switch back and forth) will have an Ammo rating. For conversions from other games or from real life statistics, assume the Ammo rating should be about 1/10 the actual magazine. Every Autofire action is counted against the Ammo rating; once the number of Autofire actions used has caught up to the Ammo rating, the gun needs reloading. Straightforward enough so far, but here's the good bit: when making single shots, this increases the likelihood of running out of ammo. In my 'whammy' system, every Autofire action would extend the 'whammy' range by 1. I don't know how Nomad4life's 'ammo save' system works (though I'd love to hear about it), but I would imagine that the Ammo rating could work as a bonus on the save, reduced each time an autofire action is used.

Does that make sense? I could give an example if anyone wants it.

[Michael Tree]

The rules for M&M are quite straightforward - for instance, driling a lot of shots into a single target means that whatever amount by which you beat the target's Defense becomes an increase on your damage bonus against the target (thus, increasing the target's Toughness save DC).

For the single-target autofire, I wouldn't make the damage increase by 1 for every 1 it beats the hit roll by. That's too overwhelming in a game where toughness saves don't increase. At the very least I would cap it at +5, and/or make it +1 damage for every 2 points by which you hit.

[Bhikku]

For the single-target autofire, I wouldn't make the damage increase by 1 for every 1 it beats the hit roll by. That's too overwhelming in a game where toughness saves don't increase. At the very least I would cap it at +5, and/or make it +1 damage for every 2 points by which you hit.

A good point, but Defense also increases, and at the same pace as attacks do (with variance for roles, feats, etc). In theory that should balance out, if characters are mostly dealing with other creaturs of approximately equal level. Granted, it would mean that a higher-level character would blow away a lower-level thug really quickly, but after all that's sort of the point of the Minion rule, right?

Your proposed solution is probably wise, though. I'm just thinking of how many players I've heard complain about Minion litlte more than immanent corpses. Some players would rather feel like their heroes are powerful rather than like their opponents are feeble, and I can sort of appreciate that. In a campaign where autofire is relatively commonplace, being able to overwhelm targets like thise could be a good way to seperate the thugs from the villains (just so long as the ammo is plentiful).

But as I say, you're probably thinking this through more carefully than I. Ah well.

[Michael Tree]

A good point, but Defense also increases, and at the same pace as attacks do (with variance for roles, feats, etc). In theory that should balance out, if characters are mostly dealing with other creaturs of approximately equal level.

The variance for roles is what I'm most concerned about. As characters gain levels there's a growing gulf between the defenses of warriors, experts, and adepts. That would make experts and especially adepts very vulnerable to being blown away by characters of the same level.

[Seeker of Truth]

The variance for roles is what I'm most concerned about. As characters gain levels there's a growing gulf between the defenses of warriors, experts, and adepts. That would make experts and especially adepts very vulnerable to being blown away by characters of the same level.

Sorry for burstin in late in the game.

Isn't that pretty true though? The warriors should be able to avoid being hit using their training. Adepts and experst need to work at that in other ways. Adepts can use protective magics, while experts use stealth. Sure, either gets hit with a burst its gonna hurt BAD, but the point is they should be using the talents and abilities they have that warriors lack to make up for it.

That's one thing I like about True20, and to some degree about d20. Every class can, in one way or another, deal with just about any problem or obstacle they face. They just each have their own ways of doing so.

[arkham618]

Hi
I'm about to start a True20 Stargate campaign as a continuation of our previous AEG-rules d20 campaign. I'm trying to ensure the actual gameplay changes are as smooth and transparent as possible, even though the numbers will be different (and a lot fewer of them!).

Has anyone else started using the True20 rules for a modern setting with intensive use of firearms? How do you handle automatic & semi-automatic weapons? How many new Feats are needed? Do you increase damage for multiple bullets, or give multiple shots? Does automatic fire give a bonus to hit, or multiple chances? If a woodchuck could chuck... erm... no, that's not relevant...

Any advice would be appreciated. Currently, as I'm not fixed on having one attack roll per target, I'm considering a simple rule for burst fire, you hit once per 4 full points by which the TN was exceeded in an attack, damage roll for each is normal, with +1 to hit per burst of 3 shots fired. Multiple targets use the normal rules. New Feats would include Firearms Training (W) (like Weapons training), Autofire Mastery (W) (without this you get -1 per burst after the first, not +1) and maybe Sharpshooter (W) (a catchall Sniper skill, involving aiming at location, doing extra damage, etc, for a penalty to hit).

Any opinions?

Wulf

EDIT: for clarity

These are the house rules I came up with for firearms.

First off, no special feats for burst fire or the like. Automatic weapons do not require innate talent to wield. They are for suppressing an area with high volume fire, not precision shooting. The only firearm feats are Strafe and Improved Strafe, which act like Cleave and Great Cleave at range. Additional targets must be within one range increment of the preceding target to use these feats.

Rate of Fire: Single-shot (SS), semi-automatic (SA), light automatic (LA), or heavy automatic (HA).

Autofire: Make attack roll as normal. For every eight points (SA), four points (LA), or two points (HA) by which attack succeeds, target makes one additional Toughness save at regular damage.

Suppression: Target area rather than combatant. For every 25 square feet targeted (5' × 5' area), -1 to attack roll. All actions taken by combatants within targeted area elicit Reflex saves (DC = attack roll) to avoid being struck. Cover adds to save.

Mishaps: Natural 1 on attack roll results in ammo depletion or weapon jam. Move action required to reload or clear weapon. Mishaps can be negated by expending Conviction.

[wulf]

These are the house rules I came up with for firearms.

Hmm... your rules sound much closer to mine, and make me think about some of the consequences...

First off, no special feats for burst fire or the like. Automatic weapons do not require innate talent to wield. They are for suppressing an area with high volume fire, not precision shooting. The only firearm feats are Strafe and Improved Strafe, which act like Cleave and Great Cleave at range. Additional targets must be within one range increment of the preceding target to use these feats.

Well, I was requiring a feat for Burst fire and one for Autofire, but even without them you only get penalties. The definitions of your Strafe & Great Strafe sound very interesting though, sounds like a good definition of automatic fire in fact...

Autofire: Make attack roll as normal. For every eight points (SA), four points (LA), or two points (HA) by which attack succeeds, target makes one additional Toughness save at regular damage.

Do you require the player to state how many rounds the character is firing off before rolling?
And do you apply modifiers for extra shots?
Do they differ between weapons (do you have an accuracy modifier for each weapon)?
And, yet more questions, do you aply penalties or bonuses for autofire?

Mishaps: Natural 1 on attack roll results in ammo depletion or weapon jam.

Is this the only way you decide a weapon is out of ammo?

Altogether, a very interesting set of ideas that look highly compatable with mine!

Wulf

[Warbringer]

A +5 damage attack will kill more easily than 5 +1 attacks, even though there's a higher overall chance of the 5 attacks getting a kill result. I find the 5 die rolls more dramatic and climactic (and gives the players 5 chances to use up Conviction to stay alive).

But, the variation in damage should be a function of ammunition, not the gun.

I have an issue. I'm trying to replicate a standard shoot out scene that happens in all westerns and specifically in this case "Last Man Standing". In a scene with lots of mooks, how can a hero kill several targets with a ranged weapon. A ranged cleave with modifers for subsequent shots (-2 ala rapid fire)?

Ideas?

[arkham618]

Well, I was requiring a feat for Burst fire and one for Autofire, but even without them you only get penalties. The definitions of your Strafe & Great Strafe sound very interesting though, sounds like a good definition of automatic fire in fact...

Again, I recommend that you dispense with feats for burst and autofire. There is really very little involved mechanically in picking up an automatic weapon and saturating an area with fire. The point of such weapons is to encourage the enemy to keep his head down by putting a lot of lead into the air, not to snipe individual combatants as they break cover. Precision shooting is already handled well by such feats as Far Shot and Improved Critical. To use these latter feats with firearms, I would require a rate of fire of SS (single-shot), even from weapons capable of higher RoFs, to simulate the process of bracing and aiming the weapon to increase accuracy. A Snap Shot feat might be in order for heroes who can snipe at higher RoFs.

Do you require the player to state how many rounds the character is firing off before rolling? And do you apply modifiers for extra shots?
Do they differ between weapons (do you have an accuracy modifier for each weapon)? And, yet more questions, do you aply penalties or bonuses for autofire?

Ammo use is abstracted from rate of fire. Automatic weapons are naturally assumed to be expending more ammo than semi-automatics, and this is factored in to the margin for extra hits during autofire (i.e., eights points for SA, four points for LA, two points for HA). I assume that the heroes have brought enough ammo to carry themselves through a firefight. At lulls during combat, I may require them to reload, thus consuming a move action at a non-critical moment. (The action movie method of ammo tracking.) Mishaps demand reloads at inconvenient moments that may be dramatically quite pivotal -- hence the option of expending Conviction to avoid them.

Hope this helps.

[arkham618]

I have an issue. I'm trying to replicate a standard shoot out scene that happens in all westerns and specifically in this case "Last Man Standing". In a scene with lots of mooks, how can a hero kill several targets with a ranged weapon. A ranged cleave with modifers for subsequent shots (-2 ala rapid fire)?

Ideas?

I would copy Cleave (and Great Cleave) exactly. One extra target, or as many targets as one can hit, stopping with the first miss. No penalties necessary: You either hit or you don't. I would require that each additional target be within one range increment of the preceding target, to prevent heroes from plonking widely scattered opponents.

[wulf]

I would copy Cleave (and Great Cleave) exactly. One extra target, or as many targets as one can hit, stopping with the first miss.

I wouldn't say copying EXACTLY - CLeave & Great Cleave, if I remember correctly, require you not only hit, but kill or disable an opponent before attacking another. I could be wrong, I'm at work now & don't have the feat to hand. For firearms, I would say any hit would do, or maybe a minimum of a Wound. Sprayed autofire doesn't feel right if you have to kill everyone but the last guy...

Wulf

[wulf]

Again, I recommend that you dispense with feats for burst and autofire. There is really very little involved mechanically in picking up an automatic weapon and saturating an area with fire.

I had thought, however, that there was a fair ammount of training involved in fire discipline; keeping autofire weapons trained on target, and not using up excessive ammo.

Mishaps demand reloads at inconvenient moments that may be dramatically quite pivotal -- hence the option of expending Conviction to avoid them.

I'm using the Stargate/Spycraft version of Crits & Fumbles, where you have to spend a Conviction point to activate either (I give out plenty of points), so I'll modify this by saying that any unactivated fumble requires a reload. If you activate it, it becomes a fumble - chose your poison

Wulf

[arkham618]

I would copy Cleave (and Great Cleave) exactly. One extra target, or as many targets as one can hit, stopping with the first miss.

I wouldn't say copying EXACTLY - CLeave & Great Cleave, if I remember correctly, require you not only hit, but kill or disable an opponent before attacking another. I could be wrong, I'm at work now & don't have the feat to hand. For firearms, I would say any hit would do, or maybe a minimum of a Wound. Sprayed autofire doesn't feel right if you have to kill everyone but the last guy...

Wulf

The requirement for Cleave, IIRC, is that you eliminate an opponent before moving on to the next. But if you recall, True20 has a minion rule that says minions are automatically incapacitated or killed on a failed Toughness save, so they will (mostly) drop with a single hit anyway.