Modding Up True20

[Tim Gray]

"Now, my problem: True 20 is pretty wimpy. Wimpier than Blue Rose. Its very very easy to get yourself killed in combat. "

Possibly not quite as much as you think. See my current thread about damage.

[skywalker]

I've seen it, and written in it, actually.

I don't know how much that fixes things, but I agree its a step in the right direction.

Still, the real problem is how, at low levels, a single crappy roll or a pair of mediumly crappy rolls will slaughter your character.
At high levels in blue rose absolutely nothing with less than a +10 damage rating or you rolling a 1 will hurt you.

RPGPundit

True 20 is not that more lethal than Blue Rose. Where a Blue Rose 20th level Warrior has +20 Toughness, a True 20th level Warrior has +20 Defence.

Add in that in True 20 Defence is not a Dodge bonus (meaning you always get that +20 to Defence) and that Parry can be used in full armour (meaning that you can always have the full benefit of armour in True 20). You can always fail a Toughness Save on a 1, but a high Defence is a relatively unfalleable defence.

So, a 20th level Warrior in True 20 can have high Defence (+20) and Toughness (+10 from Armour and Con). In Blue Rose, they have just high Toughness as Defence is effectively capped at +12.

Finally, Conviction is better in True 20 than in BR as it averages the roll at about 15 rather than BR's 12 or so.

Overall, True 20 PCs are more robust without feeling like they are. They remain feeling human. I see this as a design feature.

[KnightSage]

My suggestions:

Start characters with more than 6 points in attributes, say around 10.

Secondly, open up the Greater Toughness feat to all character types, but with limitations perhaps (Only +3 for Experts, +2 for Adepts, for example).

Encourage characters to take Greater Toughness at least once per 5 levels.

Just some ideas.

[Warbringer]

Give the characters more conviction that can only be spent in combat situations, eg action points ala Iron Kingdoms.

I'd add 1 conviction every other level. The player can then use these points for aiming, re-rolling attacks, failed toughness tests, gain more extra attacks.

This conviction is regained by heroic acts and "stunts" - jumping on the oliphants leg and climbing all the way up to shoot it in the head, and spectacular kills.

A lot for "action" based, but I think this is what you want? Right?

[skywalker]

Give the characters more conviction that can only be spent in combat situations, eg action points ala Iron Kingdoms.

There isn't any action points in IK, though I agree with your statements. True 20 is easily made more heroic by simply being more generous with Conviction. Award them for good RPGing like cool descriptions and IC moments.

[Akrasia]

I'm thinking of running a "conan-esque" campaign set in the new Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting (well, its not really new.. the box set is new.. you know what I mean), and I want to run it with True 20.
...

This is not on the topic at hand, but if you get this game going Nisarg, please let us know. I've just purchased the Wilderlands box set, and am in love with it. I'd be curious to see how it works with True 20.

[Akrasia]

Also, how hard is it to replace the damage system with the standard d20 hit point system? Doing that might help make characters more survivable (though would probably be undesirable for a variety of other reasons ...)

[FickleGM]

Unfortunately, the campaigns that I am running are all 6th level and lower, so I don't have any game history to pull from. I do, however, have some thoughts on high-level True20.

First a quick and dirty level vs. level breakdown (my opinion only):

Low vs. Low = Moderately lethal
- characters are on mostly equal footing with their adversaries, but damage is probably not over the top yet (less feats and equipment to ramp up the damage factor), so the Toughness save is makeable

Low vs. High = Highly lethal
- well, you can't hit them and when they hit you it hurts (their defense is hard to hit and they have the ramped up damage factor)

High vs. Low = Minimally lethal
- you are very difficult to hit (and the few times that you are hit, conviction can bail you out) and should hit and kill almost every time

High vs. High = Highly lethal
- once again, you are on equal footing, but unless you have some massive armor, the first one to land a blow would become the favorite (due to ramped up damage); defensive fighting (especially with the proper feats) would do a lot to help, but there appear to be more feats geared toward hitting, criticaling (is that a word?) and damaging your opponent

So, I guess that it doesn't look as bad as you suggest, nor as good as you seem to want. Of course, playing it out is probably the only way to be sure (draw up some high level one-shots - let your players know that you are planning on benchmarking the lethality of True20 in preparation for running the Wilderlands campaign).

One escalating defense option that isn't as powerful as the option presented in the PDF (where you add your Combat Bonus) would be to add your BASE Fortitude Bonus to the Toughness Save (at high levels you are as unkillable as with Combat Bonus).

[memoriam]

the best way to stop low level character dying in true20 is to walk/run away from fights you don't want to take part in or think you have no chance of winning.

one of the reasons i like true20 is that the characters can die if the player is not carefull. make for a good game if the players have to take a risk or two to get the gold/girl etc. character death is part of 'role'playing. why play if your gong to win all the time.

fight or flight, it's up to the players and no new rules needed.

[Michael Tree]

You could just give an escalating toughness bonus that increases much slower than the Blue Rose bonus. Say, +1 at every 2nd or 3rd level. If you do this it's probably a good idea to increase characters damage bonuses at each levels, so like-leveled characters are will still be able to hurt each other.

[Spectral Knight]

You could just give an escalating toughness bonus that increases much slower than the Blue Rose bonus. Say, +1 at every 2nd or 3rd level. If you do this it's probably a good idea to increase characters damage bonuses at each levels, so like-leveled characters are will still be able to hurt each other.

Halving the Toughness save progression from Blue Rose works pretty well, as does using the Fortitude save to resist damage. Using the base Fortitude save also makes the Expert class more flexible, but it does tend to overpower the Fortitude save a little.

I've considered having Toughness be one of the Expert's 'good saves', with the usual save progression for saving throws, but haven't tried it yet.

[Wrathx]

you can just lower the Save DC by 1 or 2.

Change the static element not the variable is a better way to look at changes that will pose the least amount of balancing issues. Changing a variable like adding an escalating toughness save or hitpoints will cause a cascade effect.

Adding or being more generous with Conviction is also a way that is simple and easy.

[razorwise]

you can just lower the Save DC by 1 or 2.

Change the static element not the variable is a better way to look at changes that will pose the least amount of balancing issues. Changing a variable like adding an escalating toughness save or hitpoints will cause a cascade effect.

Good observation. Changing a variable is like throwing a pebble in a pond. Running the game and then tweaking the DC to your comfort level really is the way to go. I'd definitely stay away from hit points altogether and escalating toughness can get you right back to the dilemma some other systems suffer from.

Adding or being more generous with Conviction is also a way that is simple and easy.

But this suggestion dovetails nicely into the core rules.

Regards,

Sean

[reverend keith]

Change the static element not the variable is a better way to look at changes that will pose the least amount of balancing issues. Changing a variable like adding an escalating toughness save or hitpoints will cause a cascade effect.

I don't think that wouldn't be a problem for Blue Rose. Now, I'm primarily running a political-style Blue Rose game, but the widespread use of psychic arcana in the setting means that will saves are made far more frequently, and that having will be your good save (ie, non-warriors) is a very intelligent thing to do. In contrast, fortitude saves are only used for corruption checks, poisons and a few minor things.

Hmmm... let me think about eliminating toughness and replacing it fortitude saves. On the whole, it sounds like a reasonable change, but I'm sure it will probably create problems that I'm not thinking about right now.

(Mind you, if you play a dungeon crawling version of Blue Rose/True 20, then fortitude and reflex becomes a far more valuable.)

[DnDChick]

And remember that you can burn a Conviction point to re-roll a failed save, including a Toughness save.

If someone botches really badly on a Toughness save, they can save their character from being slaughtered rather easily. No modification to the system is required to tone down the lethality.

I think this is exactly why one makes a Toughness save, rather than the opponent rolling damage against a set Toughness score. It gives characters a way out of dropping like flies in a system where one-hit-kills are possible even at higher levels. The power is in the hands of the player when it comes to keeping from getting killed.