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GoRocket wrote:What I would do is take a look at how d20 Modern deals with automatic fire, and extrapolate the combat rules from there, making changes where appropriate to allow for the differences between True20 and D20. Most of it is covered there, and you would only have to do a conversion.
wulf wrote:I found the Modern SRD. But I don't like it...
Burst Fire gives a -4 to hit, but +2 dice damage (d6, I assume?). That seems counter-intuitive to me, surely a burst would make it EASIER to hit with at least one bullet? I remember this same argument at the Stargate/Spycraft board, but I wasn't aware d20 Modern did the same thing (only worse... Spycraft only gave a -1 penalty per burst, if I remember correctly).
GoRocket wrote:The burst and autofire rules in D20 Modern are designed to use a single attack roll for any attack, so the damage model is representing hitting the target more than once on a burst. In our modification, we drop the penalty to -2 and the damage becomes a +1 bonus.
Those rules dovetail fairly nicely with True20 if you give them a chance. Making separate attack rolls for each bullet will most likely turn your games into a bloodbath, and not in a good way. Plus, all the rolling, yuck!
wulf wrote:Hmm. Only one attack roll, fine, but a PENALTY for firing a burst? Isn't part of the purpose of burst fire increasing the chance to hit by putting more bullets in the air around the target? And a flat +1 to damage? Some of the bullets will have a +4 damage as single shots.
And shouldn't different forms of armour affect individual bullets, not one collective 'superbullet'?
I only intend one attack roll, but with one hit (and one damage roll) for every 4 points by which the attack exceeds the required TN, at normal damage. So, if a target has a Defence of 17, a roll of 26 makes 3 hits to roll damage for. The chances are you'll only be rolling at most one or two extra dice. And lower damage bonuses should make a bloodbath LESS likely.
GoRocket wrote:It's a +1 BONUS to damage, not +1 total damage, so you would add that to the existing damage bonus of the weapon. Perhaps I should have been more clear. Looking at it again, however, this may not be enough of a bonus to damage. It may change before final release.
As for the penalty, I don't know how much research you've done on firearms combat, but firers tend to be less accurate when firing on automatic.
How are you going to handle weapons with 3-round bursts vs. 5-round bursts?
Again, there is an awful lot of rolling going on for each attack, assuming the defender has armor. Also, what happens if you roll a crit? Does this add to each bullet as well?
GoRocket wrote:I think maybe you are missing a salient point of part of this discussion as well. In the D20 Modern system, as well as in our setting, you need the Burst Fire feat in order to even do this. And to get that, you first need the Autofire feat. So it's not like every character can make burst attacks.
Of course, such a conversion from D20 Modern to True20 has to take into consideration the differences between D20 and True20 damage resolution. Toughness save bonuses do not escalate at all in the standard rules, whereas D20 characters jump their hit points each level. One attack roll with one save (modified for armor) makes the most sense in this system.
Nomad4life wrote:Quickly testing these rules out, I can see that this system might cause some confusion when determining how many actual rounds are fired in the attack. However, like you, I use a type of "ammo save" rather than tracking shots. In Star Wars (the game we're running) most weapons have 50 or more shots per clip anyway.
Bhikku wrote:The rules for M&M are quite straightforward - for instance, driling a lot of shots into a single target means that whatever amount by which you beat the target's Defense becomes an increase on your damage bonus against the target (thus, increasing the target's Toughness save DC).
Michael Tree wrote:For the single-target autofire, I wouldn't make the damage increase by 1 for every 1 it beats the hit roll by. That's too overwhelming in a game where toughness saves don't increase. At the very least I would cap it at +5, and/or make it +1 damage for every 2 points by which you hit.
The variance for roles is what I'm most concerned about. As characters gain levels there's a growing gulf between the defenses of warriors, experts, and adepts. That would make experts and especially adepts very vulnerable to being blown away by characters of the same level.Bhikku wrote:A good point, but Defense also increases, and at the same pace as attacks do (with variance for roles, feats, etc). In theory that should balance out, if characters are mostly dealing with other creaturs of approximately equal level.
Michael Tree wrote:The variance for roles is what I'm most concerned about. As characters gain levels there's a growing gulf between the defenses of warriors, experts, and adepts. That would make experts and especially adepts very vulnerable to being blown away by characters of the same level.
I'm about to start a True20 Stargate campaign as a continuation of our previous AEG-rules d20 campaign. I'm trying to ensure the actual gameplay changes are as smooth and transparent as possible, even though the numbers will be different (and a lot fewer of them!).
Has anyone else started using the True20 rules for a modern setting with intensive use of firearms? How do you handle automatic & semi-automatic weapons? How many new Feats are needed? Do you increase damage for multiple bullets, or give multiple shots? Does automatic fire give a bonus to hit, or multiple chances? If a woodchuck could chuck... erm... no, that's not relevant...
Any advice would be appreciated. Currently, as I'm not fixed on having one attack roll per target, I'm considering a simple rule for burst fire, you hit once per 4 full points by which the TN was exceeded in an attack, damage roll for each is normal, with +1 to hit per burst of 3 shots fired. Multiple targets use the normal rules. New Feats would include Firearms Training (W) (like Weapons training), Autofire Mastery (W) (without this you get -1 per burst after the first, not +1) and maybe Sharpshooter (W) (a catchall Sniper skill, involving aiming at location, doing extra damage, etc, for a penalty to hit).
EDIT: for clarity
arkham618 wrote:These are the house rules I came up with for firearms.
First off, no special feats for burst fire or the like. Automatic weapons do not require innate talent to wield. They are for suppressing an area with high volume fire, not precision shooting. The only firearm feats are Strafe and Improved Strafe, which act like Cleave and Great Cleave at range. Additional targets must be within one range increment of the preceding target to use these feats.
Autofire: Make attack roll as normal. For every eight points (SA), four points (LA), or two points (HA) by which attack succeeds, target makes one additional Toughness save at regular damage.
Mishaps: Natural 1 on attack roll results in ammo depletion or weapon jam.
A +5 damage attack will kill more easily than 5 +1 attacks, even though there's a higher overall chance of the 5 attacks getting a kill result. I find the 5 die rolls more dramatic and climactic (and gives the players 5 chances to use up Conviction to stay alive).
wulf wrote:Well, I was requiring a feat for Burst fire and one for Autofire, but even without them you only get penalties. The definitions of your Strafe & Great Strafe sound very interesting though, sounds like a good definition of automatic fire in fact...
Do you require the player to state how many rounds the character is firing off before rolling? And do you apply modifiers for extra shots?
Do they differ between weapons (do you have an accuracy modifier for each weapon)? And, yet more questions, do you aply penalties or bonuses for autofire?
Warbringer wrote:I have an issue. I'm trying to replicate a standard shoot out scene that happens in all westerns and specifically in this case "Last Man Standing". In a scene with lots of mooks, how can a hero kill several targets with a ranged weapon. A ranged cleave with modifers for subsequent shots (-2 ala rapid fire)?
arkham618 wrote:I would copy Cleave (and Great Cleave) exactly. One extra target, or as many targets as one can hit, stopping with the first miss.
arkham618 wrote:Again, I recommend that you dispense with feats for burst and autofire. There is really very little involved mechanically in picking up an automatic weapon and saturating an area with fire.
Mishaps demand reloads at inconvenient moments that may be dramatically quite pivotal -- hence the option of expending Conviction to avoid them.
wulf wrote:arkham618 wrote:I would copy Cleave (and Great Cleave) exactly. One extra target, or as many targets as one can hit, stopping with the first miss.
I wouldn't say copying EXACTLY - CLeave & Great Cleave, if I remember correctly, require you not only hit, but kill or disable an opponent before attacking another. I could be wrong, I'm at work now & don't have the feat to hand. For firearms, I would say any hit would do, or maybe a minimum of a Wound. Sprayed autofire doesn't feel right if you have to kill everyone but the last guy...
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