d20 to True20 - Combat

[JBowtie]

Combat in True20 is a whole new experience. The True20 and Blue Rose appendices do an excellent job of helping make the transition mechanically - the conversion process is relatively straightfoward and painless. This article is going to talk about integrating the new system into an ongoing campaign.

The biggest obstacle to adopting the new, streamlined system is player resistance. Combat in True20 is considerably more dangerous than in d20. Teams that are used to kicking in the door and going toe-to-toe are going to be in trouble; they'll have to learn tactics and how to avoid combat through stealth or negotiation. Some people are not going to be happy.

Start by simply recalculating everybody's basic combat stats (attack, defense, damage, and toughness). I find it makes things clearer to write the damage DC (15 +damage) next to a weapon's final damage; it helps people gauge the relationship to toughness a bit better.

Introduce the damage track. You'll need to run a sample combat at this juncture, so that everyone can get their heads around the basic flow of combat. Gloss over multiple attacks and AoO; you're going to need to eliminate those, but just handwave it at this point; if you mention it too early it will colour people's reactions negatively (unless you've already houseruled them away/know your group hates them).

The very next thing you do is introduce the minions rule. Take special care to emphasise this, as it causes a big adjustment in player perception. See, you've just demonstrated that True20 combat flows differently and is more lethal. By introducing the minions rule, you're tamping down the overall danger level - they won't consider "standard" encounters as overly threatening, and will instead be able to concentrate on those really critical battles.

Now, you need to eliminate attacks of opportunity and multiple attacks per round. High-level fighters may object to this, even if they don't use the full attack action all the time. I usually point out that their (more numerous) enemies no longer enjoy these advantages, and that they no longer provoke attacks of opportunity themselves, allowing them to move about more freely and take other actions (like drinking potions) that they might otherwise be too paranoid to take. And your spellcasters will be happy.

Spend some time going over the Conviction benefits. I ended up with a half-page summary of all the things they could do with Conviction in combat; this addressed a lot of perceived issues with the new system.

Here's how I summarized the major changes for my group.

* (new combat stats)
* You get one attack per round. If you have 2-weapon fighting, you get two attacks.
* You can spend a point of Conviction to take an extra standard action (which includes an attack!) anytime during a round.
* You can take 10 on your attack rolls except when fighting unique individuals.
* Only unique individuals can score criticals or called shots.
* If a minion fails a toughness save, they're dead; you can choose to inflict a lesser penalty.
* You can spend a Conviction point to counter a bad Toughness save.
* (other Conviction uses)

With all that out of the way, here's some advice on other conversion issues.

Weapons that do negligible amounts of damage (1d3 or less) can be converted to +0 or even negative values. Nonsense values such as 1d1-1 can become -3 or something similar, making the Toughness DC 12 (only a threat to unarmoured characters with low constitutions). This makes much more sense, even if it looks a little odd.

Feats that are activated by taking a "full-round attack action" can usually apply their effects to a standard attack. If really wanted, you can continue to use them as written, only now the character is giving up a move action rather than additional attacks.

In many cases, you can simply eliminate feats that adjust hit points (alternately, allow a bonus to Toughness). Feats that affect AC should add to either defense (preferred) or toughness. In many cases, you can simply eliminate the feat in question and substitute a more generic True20 equivalent. Feats that allow additional attacks should either be tossed or require the use of Conviction.

[Jonathan Moyer]

Feats that allow additional attacks should either be tossed or require the use of Conviction.

What do you think about a "Flurry of Blows" Feat progression, a la Grim Tales?

Jon

[JBowtie]

I'm not familiar with it - is it based off the d20 monk ability?

[langeweile]

you sum it up very nice

tough i would really discourage to allow take-10 on attacks, even vs minions. then you could rather skip the combat, because take-10 means, after 3rd level or so, that you auto-succed quite any hit anyway. minions are weak enough already by the minion-toughness rule.
i, too, would also allow criticals for minions - crits are not overly hard in true20, and you can still get a lucky shot/hit by this. normally, this doenst pose a thread, because conviction will surely safe you (max take a would if all goes bad) - but it will stop people from rushing into every combat without thinking, because it will slowly burn their conviction.

good work !

[JBowtie]

i would really discourage to allow take-10 on attacks, even vs minions. then you could rather skip the combat, because take-10 means, after 3rd level or so, that you auto-succed quite any hit anyway

That's sort of the point.

The fact is, encounters with minions aren't usually very important. Their primary purpose is to wear down the adventurers and eat into their supplies in the run up to the really important combat. Even if you auto-hit, the minions are most likely going to hurt you and fatigue your spellcasters. (And if you vanquish them too easily, the DM should be throwing more at you or mixing in non-minions like captains and commanders).

The take 10 and no criticals rules are really important for most new converts from traditional d20 systems; things are too lethal otherwise. As an example, my first playtest had 5 level 1 orcs versus 2 level 5 fighters. In three rounds the players were disabled and wounded, respectively (after expending Conviction, I might add), with three unharmed, one hurt, and one disabled orc. Assuming the same rolls, but applying the take 10//no critical rules meant that both players were hurt (at -2 and -1) but all foes vanquished.

If I had followed that up with full-on combat against a level 3 orc captain - well, it could be dicey with them both hurt and a slaughter with disabled/wounded characters.

[langeweile]

you have a point there, though i don't see how this could happen (except very bad luck - and with that, players too should have to deal from time to time).

i'd assume, that those fighters were either "skilled bad" or "played dumb".
ecspecially with the idea in mind, that dex adds to attacks, not strength.
so you orcs should have something like attack +2 (+1 dex, +1 combat) vs def 18+ (+5 combat, +3 dex or str) - while the other way round, you should have +6 attack (+5 combat +1 dex) vs def +4 def (+1 combat +2 str +1 shield) - and these numbers were taken VERY MUCH in favor of the orcs.
might pm me with your numbers ? this is going a little off topic here i think, so keep the thread clean. i gonna look into a similar matchup myself.
(tough as sidenote: as you see here, with take 10 it doesn't matter if you bare match the defense or superced it by something like +10.)

the thing i have in mind on having / not having the rule is: give it to them first and take it away later will produce much more arguments, than have a hard "first dive" and then going with those straight rules...

[Denaes]

I agree that minions should be wimps, but I like them having their crit. What does it give, like +1 to +3? Its something, but not overwealming IMO.

[JBowtie]

Obviously, the response depends on your group and your own prediliction for bookkeeping.

Not having a damage track for minions vastly simplifies my bookkeeping. Double-plus good when dealing with generic mass of skeletons/zombies/guards.

Not having crits lowers lethality - toughness does not increase with level, so when you're hit, luck plays a big factor in whether or not you stay on your feet. A natural 20 is still an automatic hit, so your characters are guaranteed to be hit *at least* 5% of the time, even by skeletons and orcs.

My players look at it this way - one hit can kill (especially a critical) if they roll a natural one (so *at least* 5% of all hits are potential death-dealers). They are not happy when a tenth level character is dropped by a generic orc. At least being brought low by a BBEG is a noble death.

Now, your players may be happy with these odds, but players who are used to even the luckiest critical hit from an orc being a mere scratch (at higher levels, anyway) are in for a very nasty transition shock.

[skywalker]

For my own part, I also don't allow mooks Crits.

My players look at it this way - one hit can kill (especially a critical) if they roll a natural one (so *at least* 5% of all hits are potential death-dealers). They are not happy when a tenth level character is dropped by a generic orc. At least being brought low by a BBEG is a noble death.

This is a perception but is not actually accurate.

A PC can spend a Conviction to reroll the 1 and get a minimum of 10. A 10th level PC has 7 Conviction whilst an Orc has 0. Also, if you go to dying you can spend a Conviction to automatically stabilise (which is only a Con roll DC 10 anyway).

Hit Points in D&D have been split in True 20 into 3 components - Combat (defence), Toughness (resilience) and Conviction (heroism). When you change systems, you need to use all three components. looking at just 2 will obviously make the system seem more lethal. If you look at all three, you will find True 20 combats feel more lethal (and more realistic) but are actually the PCs are almost as robust as they are in D&D.

[JBowtie]

This is a perception but is not actually accurate.

For some groups the perception will matter. For others not so much.

Once the group is over the transition and have their heads wrapped solidly around the new system, it's realistic to see if they're comfortable with new house rules.

It's a bit like when people moved to 3E - most groups are going to need to internalize the new flow. My little guide is to help newbies make the transition successfully - after that everyone's going to tweak the rules extensively anyway.

[skywalker]

For some groups the perception will matter. For others not so much.

Perception will matter for most groups. I guess my point is that presentation of the changes in True 20 can have a large impact in how one view's the game. If the change to HP in True 20 is described as "you now have Toughness and a higher Defence bonus" only, then it will feel more deadly as you are missing the third component - Conviction. If you include all three then it is more likely that the system won't be perceived as that much deadlier.

[JBowtie]

One thing I've noticed is that to start with, people hoard Conviction the same way they hoard potions; not using it until the situation is pretty dire.

Over time, they loosen up and start spending it more freely. Then they start to really reap the benefits and you can start presenting more balanced encounters without TPK.

[skywalker]

One thing I've noticed is that to start with, people hoard Conviction the same way they hoard potions; not using it until the situation is pretty dire.

Over time, they loosen up and start spending it more freely. Then they start to really reap the benefits and you can start presenting more balanced encounters without TPK.

Agree. I tend to be generous with Conviction awards to begin with to promote a more free use of them. I find it is easy to modify the level of "grit" in the game simply by how much Conviction is awarded.

[Denaes]

Kinda reminds me of Convention Buffy/Angel games.

You might get a Drama Point back per episode... you're given like 20 to last all season.

In normal games people hoard them for really tuff encounters and the season finale.

In a con game you only have that one session so people blow through DP like water. You see some really crazy shit going down in those games!

You want crazy shit happening in your game, you let the players know that they'll get their conviction back on a regular basis. Trust me, award the group like 3 Conviction for completing a signifigant task/event and you'll hear "umm, what happens if I havn't used 3 yet?". They'll learn there isn't much point to hoard them pretty quickly.

Of course if you don't hand Conviction out very often, then they will hoard their Conviction.

One statement I'd heard for hording conviction was that since you could only use it once per turn, if you used it to attack, then you couldn't use it to reroll your defense or heal and you could end up dead even with 10 Conviction in the bank.

[Jonathan Moyer]

I'm not familiar with it - is it based off the d20 monk ability?

Yeah, Flurry of Blows is based on the Monk class ability. In Grim Tales, they made it a Fast Hero Advanced Talent tree (meaning you can take it at 4th level):

Flury of Blows (make an additional unarmed attack at -2)
prereqs - Improved Unarmed Combat

Improved Flurry of Blows (flurry attack penalty reduced to -1)
prereqs - BAB +4, Flurry of Blows

Advanced Flurry of Blows (flurry attack penalty reduced to 0)
prereqs - BAB +8, Improved Flurry of Blows

Greater Flurry of Blows (make and additional flurry attack)
prereqs - BAB +12, Advaned Flurry of Blows

I think something like this could be a good Expert Feat progression, but I wanted to hear other opinions. I'd probably ditch the BAB requirements.

Jon

[Grim Luck]

Hmmm. I think I'd just add 'Rapid Strike' from M&M.

I think it would be best ported with the following rules: As a full round action you may choose to make an additional attack in a round. Both attacks suffer a -2 penalty to hit.

Because of the nature of attacks in the game, I'm not sure I'd allow multiple attacks beyond that point.

Of course, Rapid Strike would likely be available for sword-swinging just as much as unarmed combat. So maybe another more specific feat is in order that has rapid strike as a prerequisite.

Flashing Fists - (Prerequisite: Rapid Strike) - When a character chooses to use Rapid Strike while unarmed, his penalty to hit is reduced to -1.

I don't think I'd go much beyond this.

I'm not sure if I'd have these be 'expert' feats, as they're clearly very martial. Perhaps it would work well as BOTH an expert feat and a martial feat. This would just exclude Adepts, which makes sense.

[JBowtie]

The way I see it, Flurry of Blows is Two-Weapon Fighting for unarmed characters. (TWF and light weapon gives a -2/-2).

Benefits beyond this should be analogous to the TWF tree.

[langeweile]

ree - i was offline for two days :-/
discussion has evolved a good bit - but i think, this does not only provide much insight on minions, but on combat / combat styles / lethality etc for true20.

have fun with...


warrior 5 (strong fighter)
str +3, dex +1, con +1, any mental (+1 total)
weapon training, armor training (all), shield training, weapon bind, improved disarm, any 3 other feats
any 2+int skills
longsword (masterwork), full plate, heavy shield
=> attack +7 (+6, 19-20/+9 dmg), disarm +9
=> dodge 18, parry 20
=> toughness +9, 5 conviction

expert 4 / warrior 1 (quick allrounder)
str +0, dex +4, con +1, any mental (+1 total)
armor training (light), two weapon fighting, improved critical (dagger), cleave, any 4 other feats
any 6+int skills
2 daggers (masterwork), chainshirt
=> attack +9 (+1, 17-20 +4 dmg), attack +7/+7 (+1, 17-20 +4 dmg)
=> dodge 18, parry 14
=> toughness +5, 5 conviction

vs

10 orc warriors 1 (from the book)
str +3, dex +0, con +1, any mental (-5 total)
weapon focus (great axe)
any skills
greataxe, leather armor
=> attack +2 (+8, 20/+12 dmg)
=> dodge 11, parry 14
=> toughness +3, dead on fail



the setup
an open field, no surprise, no ranged weapons (all for simplicity), some distance
tactics heros: the strong await the orc in front (total defense 1st round), the quick works a bit from behind and also hinders flanking
tactics orcs: the first 5 charge, the rest joins 1 round later
house rule:you can parry at maximum 2 opponents per round, a 3rd if you have a second weapon / a shield. weapon bind is limited thereby, too.
format: total (dice roll)



1st run:

4 orcs charge the strong (def 24, 24, 22, 22): 10 (6), 6 (2), 18 (14), 16 (12)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 12 (3), strong spends conviction 28 (19) => nothing
=> 2 disarms as counter: 24 (15), 22 (13)
=> disarm rolls: 16 (10), 23 (17) vs 14 (11), 18 (15) orcs => 2 orcs disarmed
1 orc charges the quick: 12 (8) => nothing
the quick attacks: 10 (3), 11 (4) => nothing
==> sum: 8 orcs standing, 2 orcs disarmed

2 orcs attack the strong: 21 (19), 15 (13)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 21 (12) => strong 1 hurt
=> 1 disarm as counter: 14 (5)
=> disarm roll: 26 (20) vs 16 (13) orc => 1 orc disarmed
2 orcs rearm themself
1 orc attacks the quick: 17 (15) => nothing
the strong attacks: 10 (1) => nothing
the quick attacks: 22 (15), 18 (11)
=> 2 hits for dc 16: 6 (3), 14 (11) => 2 orcs down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 24 (19, 11 (9))
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 3 (2) => 1 orc down
3 orcs attack the strong (def 18): 12 (10), 6 (4), 10 (8) => nothing
2 orcs attack the quick: 7 (5), 5 (3) => nothing
==> sum: 6 orcs standing, 1 disarmed, 3 down

1 orc attacks the strong: 10 (8) => nothing
1 orc reams himself
the strong attacks: 19 (12)
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 20 (17) => 1 orc down
the quick attacks: 26 (19, 15 (8)), 23 (16)
=> 2 hits for dc 19, dc 16: 20 (17), 4 (1) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 20 (15)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 15 (14) => 1 orc down
2 orcs attack the quick: 17 (15), 4 (2)
==> sum: 4 orcs stand, 6 down

1 orc attacks the strong: 5 (3) => nothing
=> 1 disarm attempt as counter: 26 (17)
=> disarm roll: 26 (20) vs 11 (8) => 1 orc disarmed
1 orc attacks the quick: 6 (4) => nothing
the strong attacks: 20 (13)
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 16 (13)
the quick attacks: 25 (18, 20 (13)), 23 (16)
=> 2 hits for dc 19, dc 16: 22 (19), 13 (10) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 7 (2) => nothing
1 orc does nothing
==> sum: 2 orcs stand, 1 disarmed, 7 down => the orcs flee

summary: strong hero 1 conviction spent and 1 hurt, quick hero nothing


2nd run:

4 orcs charge the strong (def 24, 24, 22, 22): 9 (5), 9 (5), 17 (13), 16 (12) => nothing
=> 2 disarm attempts as counter: 23 (14), 10 (1)
=> disarm roll: 13 (7) vs 6 (3) orc => 1 orc disarmed
1 orc charges the quick: 13 (9) => nothing
the quick attacks: 12 (5), 10 (3)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 20 (17)
==> sum: 9 orcs standing, 1 orc disarmed

3 orcs attack the strong (def 20, 20, 18): 7 (5), 17 (15), 7 (5) => nothing
1 orc reams himself
=> 2 disarm attempts as counter: 12 (3), 25 (16)
=> disarm roll: 7 (1) vs 18 (15) => nothing
1 orc attcks the quick: 4 (2) => nothing
the strong attacks: 9 (2) => nothing
the quick attacks: 21 (14), 14 (7)
=> 2 hits for dc 16: 21 (18), 5 (2) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 15 (10)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 15 (14) => 1 orc down
3 orcs attack the strong (def 18): 14 (12), 3 (1), 7 (5) => nothing
2 orcs attacks the quick: 7 (5), 17 (15) => nothing
==> sum: 8 orcs standing, 2 orcs down

2 orcs attack the strong: 7 (5), 5 (3) => nothing
=> 2 disarm attemps as counter: 24 (15), 11 (2)
=> disarm roll: 26 (20) vs 18 (15) => 1 orc disarmed
the strong attacks: 17 (10)
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 16 (13) => 1 orc down
the quick attacks: 18 (11), 11 (4)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 8 (5) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 14 (9)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 13 (12) => 1 orc down
3 orc attack the quick: 8 (6), 21 (19), 12 (10)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 13 (8) => quick 1 hurt and wounded and stunned
the quick spends conviction to shake off stun
==> sum: 4 orcs standing, 1 orc disarmed, 5 orc down

the strong attacks: 8 (1) => nothing
the quick attacks: 10 (5), 23 (18, 19 (14))
=> 1 hit for dc 19: 4 (1) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt: 9 (4)
1 orc reams himself
3 orcs attack the quick: 18 (16), 3 (1), 6 (4)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 7 (3) the quick spends conviction 21 (17) => quick 2 hurts
==> sum: 4 orcs standing, 6 orcs down

the strong attacks: 15 (8)
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 11 (8) => 1 orc down
the quick attacks: 18 (13), 18 (13)
=> 1 hits for dc 16: 19 (16), 9 (6) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt: 9 (4)
2 orcs do nothing
==> sum: 2 orcs standing, 8 orcs down => the orcs flee

summary: strong hero nothing, quick hero 2 hurt and wounded and 2 conviction spent


3rd run:

4 orcs charge the strong (def 24, 24, 22, 22): 24 (20, 9 (5)), 6 (2), 14 (10), 6 (2)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 18 (9) => strong 1 hurt
=> 1 disarm attempt as counter: 14 (9)
=> disarm roll: 22 (16) vs 16 (13) orc => 1 orc disarmed
1 orc charges the quick: 20 (16)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 6 (1), quick spends conviction 20 (14) => quick 1 hurt
the quick attacks: 19 (12), 24 (17, 20 (13))
=> 2 hits for dc 16, 19: 12 (9), 16 (13) => 2 orcs down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 13 (8) => nothing
==> sum: 7 orcs standing, 1 orc disarmed, 2 orcs down

1 orc attacks the strong: 11 (9) => nothing
=> 1 disarm attempt as counter: 25 (16)
=> disarm roll: 25 (19) vs 16 (13) orc => 1 orc disarmed
1 orc reams himself
1 orc attacks the quick: 8 (6) => nothing
the strong attacks: 8 (1) => nothing
the quick attacks: 22 (15), 17 (10)
=> 2 hits for dc 16: 20 (17), 17 (14) => nothing
2 orc attack the strong (def 20, 18): 22 (20, 3 (1)), 5 (3)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 9 (1) strong spends conviction 18 (7 => 10) strong 2 hurt
3 orcs attack the quick: 17 (15), 15 (13), 5 (3)
==> sum: 7 orcs standing, 1 orc disaremd, 2 orcs down

1 orc attacks the strong: 21 (19)
1 orc reams himself
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 9 (2) strong spends conviction 17 (2 => 10) strong 3 hurts wounded and stunned
quick attacks: 23 (16), 18 (11)
=> 2 hits for dc 16: 8 (5), 16 (13) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt (finessed): 17 (12)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 8 (7) => 1 orc down
quick spends conviction quick attacks: 26 (17, 12 (3))
=> 1 hit dc 16: 4 (1) => 1 orc down
2 orcs attack the strong (def 13): 14 (12), 14 (12)
=> 2 hits for dc 23: 11 (4), 23 (18) => strong 4 hurts and disabled
==> sum: 4 orcs standing, 6 orcs down

2 orcs the quick: 19 (17), 16 (14)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 16 (12) quick 2 hurts wounded and stunned
quick spends conviction to shake of stun
quick attacks: 11 (6), 14 (9)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 11 (8) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt: 21 (16)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 17 (14)
1 orc attacks the quick: 11 (9)
==> sum: 3 orcs standing, 7 orcs down

2 orcs attack the quick: 16 (14), 17 (15) => nothing
quick attacks: 9 (4), 20 (15)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 15 (12) => 1 orc down
=> 1 cleave attempt: 16 (11)
=> 1 hit for dc 16: 21 (18)
sum: 2 orcs standing, 8 orcs down

2 orcs attack the quick: 21 (19), 8 (6)
=> 1 hit for dc 23: 4 (1) quick spends conviction 13 (1 => 10) quick 3 hurts and disabled
strong spends conviction strong attacks: 24 (19, 7 (2))
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 22 (19)
==> sum: 2 orc standing, 8 orcs down

2 orcs attack the strong (def still 20 !): 6 (4), 16 (14)
=> 2 disarm attemps: 18 (11), 22 (15)
=> 2 disarm rolls: 13 (9) vs 21 (18) orc, 23 (19) vs 5 (2) => 1 orc disarmed
strong spends conviction strong attacks the unarmed (def 11): 23 (18)
=> 1 hit for dc 21: 16 (13) => 1 orc down
==> sum: 1 orc standing, 9 orcs down

quick spends conviction to keep going
1 orc attacks the strong: 3 (1)
quick attacks: 22 (17, 24 (19)), 17 (12)
=> 2 hits for dc 19, 16: 4 (1) => 1 orc down
==> sum: 10 orcs down

summary: strong hero 4 hurts disabled and 4 conviction spent, quick hero 3 hurts disabled and 5 conviction spent


total summary:
the first 2 runs went slow for the heros first, but then quite good.
the 3rd run was a good start, but turned in a almost disaster.
to compare: with take 10 on attack, it would have been a bet-down for the orc, because every disarm attemp would have hit, and every attack would have hit even finessed !
orc are also quite the best warriors you can get this level, and being outnumbered 5 vs 1 is huge.

conclusion: instant death is more than enough. here 2 heros, one a medicore warrior, on a jack of all trades, did 2 humilations and 1 win on the edge.
and here we do not count favoreable conditions (most time, heros can make use of skills, terrain, ranged combat etc) and other feats (inspire awe) / magic (orcs have bad mental attributes).
also note, that the heros could have been significantly better in combat (better items) - the warrior could have cleave, rage (+2 strength counters -2 def due parry) - the expert could use the surprise tree and dagger throwing (point blank, far shot, precise shot, ...). both could use the numerical increases (+ attack / dmg / toughness) and have still many other open options !

[Grim Luck]

Good reading. I enjoyed that.