Blue Rose "Romantic Fantasy" game

[Chairman Aeon]

Having a game with more emotional and social content does not rule out having great combats and melees, hopefully it just means the fighting will not be the goal itself and the mechanics won't bog down the storyline.

And that's all I want from Blue Rose. Combat that can be epic, but doesn't take two hours to play out. Is Dark Romantic Fantasy a genre?

Iain.

[Michael Heacock]

Having a game with more emotional and social content does not rule out having great combats and melees, hopefully it just means the fighting will not be the goal itself and the mechanics won't bog down the storyline.

And that's all I want from Blue Rose. Combat that can be epic, but doesn't take two hours to play out. Is Dark Romantic Fantasy a genre?

Iain.

Romantipunk. Heh heh.

[Strand0]

Having a game with more emotional and social content does not rule out having great combats and melees, hopefully it just means the fighting will not be the goal itself and the mechanics won't bog down the storyline.

And that's all I want from Blue Rose. Combat that can be epic, but doesn't take two hours to play out. Is Dark Romantic Fantasy a genre?

Yup! But it always has vampires in it.

[Voneth]

Proving that superhero comics are just soap operas for men.

I don't read soap operas, I read pathos. Just like my son plays with action figures, not dolls.

[Nhoj]

Anyone remember the 80s? 90? game Steel and Lace? It was from Austrailia, and was a romantic fantasy swashbuckler. Combat was via a card game, if he swung low, you hoped your parry card was low, not high. The exact same card game was used for social insults. The game had rules for getting into a funk, and you had to lay up in a high priced inn and recover your confidence.

In d20, the social skills, like bluff, diplomacy, etc (the Cha based skills) tend to take the fun out of it. I don't want my players to roll a die and add a modifier. I want them to role play. And I don't want to punish good role playing by a bad die roll.

In any case, I'm looking forward to this. I may or may not run a campaign (only one woman in our group, and and some really like the dark and gritty) but I may steal ideas and rules. But I have some real role players, so they might get into it.

[Chairman Aeon]

In d20, the social skills, like bluff, diplomacy, etc (the Cha based skills) tend to take the fun out of it. I don't want my players to roll a die and add a modifier. I want them to role play. And I don't want to punish good role playing by a bad die roll.

I know what you mean. Things like BAB or AC take the fun out of combat. I expect my players to use real swords and fight 'til someone is dead. Why should I punish a good fighter by a bad die roll.

Iain.

[Michael Heacock]

In d20, the social skills, like bluff, diplomacy, etc (the Cha based skills) tend to take the fun out of it. I don't want my players to roll a die and add a modifier. I want them to role play. And I don't want to punish good role playing by a bad die roll.

I know what you mean. Things like BAB or AC take the fun out of combat. I expect my players to use real swords and fight 'til someone is dead. Why should I punish a good fighter by a bad die roll.

Iain.

I think things like thinking and talking and socializing take the fun out of roleplaying. I'd never expect my players to actually solve puzzles or try to figure out mysteries. I only expect them to say things like: "I want to break into the building" or "I want to solve the crime", by which I'll respond: "Okay roll a die."

You can't compare combat to core roleplaying ideals like figuring out mysteries and conversing with NPCs. The social skills should be played out to some degree via roleplaying before a die roll is made.

[khaalis]

Just to post a small comment here, all sarcasm aside...

Not all players have the skills to portray the characters they play. In fact most people tend to play characters that are the opposite of what they are like in real life. How does the average intelligence person play someone with a 18 INT (which is a genius level intelligence)? How does a person that is somewhat withdrawn and introverted accurately role-play a suave debonair rogue?

I am sorry, you can say that gaming is all about Role-Playing all you want but it is only true to a certain extent. There have to be alternatives for those that wish to play something they are not. Yes in a game I expect more from a player than “I bluff the guy.” I expect the character to at least attempt to role-play what the bluff is but the results are left to the die. Also without the numbers/die rolls, how do you quantify someone’s abilities? It cannot be left simply to whim.

Just my humble thoughts.

[Nhoj]

Didn't mean to start a thought provoking discussion. I brought up the thinness of the d20 social skills because it irks me. If you love it, great.

I'm hoping BR will have some thicker social roleplaying sauce. I've always liked the way World of Darkness devotes 1/3 of the character sheet to social powers. Of course I've always liked the 1/4 of the Call of Cthulhu sheet being devoted to the inevitable slide into madness, but that's another topic. I think insulting the wrong people should stay with the character, same with chatting up the right people. It should have an effect on the future options and situations for the character.

Here's what works for me and my group: When we have a role playing opportunity, I let them just role play. I just rule with a DM Fiat if I'm very convinced they've botched it or won it. If I have any doubt, I give them a dice mod. (Unless the game is bogging down, then I just DM Fiat whatever it takes to get moving again.) I do the dice mod often enough that it rewards players who put the points in the skill, and DM Fiat enough that it rewards great roleplaying no matter what.

We call it role playing, not roll playing, but it's an interesting problem. Should the puzzels be solved by an Int roll? I think most DMs would say no. What about role playing problems?

Should I have my players convince a sexy vampire drow wizard, whose great love the party (inadvertently) helped find a new lover many game sessions ago, just hand over a powerful magic item to the players with a single die roll? Not at my table! Make them sweat! Make them all talk! (This was part of last nights game, fresh in my mind.)

Oh, thanks to Chairman Aeon for the suggtion about real swords. We're kind of cheap, so we're just poking each other in the eye now.

[Michael Heacock]

Yes in a game I expect more from a player than “I bluff the guy.” I expect the character to at least attempt to role-play what the bluff is but the results are left to the die.

I agree. I realize that players aren't going to be diplomats or social butterflies on par with their characters (heck, even the GM won't). But it's imporant to at least roleplay the beginning of these encounters to set the mood and the tone and the path down which the story will then follow.

[SimonCollins]

Hi

Just wondering whether the psychic powers mentioned in the marketing text refers to standard d20 (WotC) psionics, psychic skills and feats a la 'The Psychic's Handbook', or another system?

Also, I'd like to know more of the reasons/features that make it an OGL (rather than a d20) book.

Many thanks.

Simon Collins

[Jeremy Crawford]

Just wondering whether the psychic powers mentioned in the marketing text refers to standard d20 (WotC) psionics, psychic skills and feats a la 'The Psychic's Handbook', or another system?

Blue Rose has its own psychic skill and feat system. Elemental magic is also included.

Also, I'd like to know more of the reasons/features that make it an OGL (rather than a d20) book.

It's a standalone game, not requiring the Player's Handbook. It contains the information a player needs to make and advance a character and play the game.

[SimonCollins]

Blue Rose has its own psychic skill and feat system. Elemental magic is also included.

Thanks for that. Sounds great that it's skill-and-feat based. Does it include very obvious manifestations (like teleport, apport, pyrokinesis, etc.) or more low-key stuff only (like telepathy, farsensing, psychometry, etc.)?

It's a standalone game, not requiring the Player's Handbook. It contains the information a player needs to make and advance a character and play the game.

Sorry. I should have been clearer in my question. I understand in general what adhering to the OGL rather than d20 licence means. What I was interested in picking up was the design and marketing reasons behind this, and the particular areas that made the designers shy away from the d20 licence because of the limitations it applied to the Blue Rose setting.

Thanks

Simon Collins

[Dark Mistress]

Hmm depending how it is done I might be interasted. But now to hit on a few of the comments made by others.

To a point I agree that RPG's espicaly DnD was never targeted at female gamers and yes plenty of us like to kill things just like the guys. I think the main diffrence is most girls also like more complex social interaction. Or as my male friends call it soap opera social interaction.

I personally never had a problem with the art in old DnD books or the ones in mongoose*shrug* it's no diffrent than say a playboy which i am not revolted by. In fact I forget the exact number but a decent precentage of subscribes to it are female.

I think the main reason DnD is considered diffrent from the more social games(like vampire, amber ect) isn't the core mechanics of the game but the focus of the game. Those games focus on politics, dealing with a nightly life where you have to hide what you are ect, while DnD is much more focused on going out and killing stuff. It is rare to see adventures built around social interaction with only a few fights in them.

As for diffrence in female and male gamers... in my personal experince, it seems to me that most girls like playing social aspects in more detail than guys, are more apt to like romance and typicaly want a reason for going to the local dungeon and killing everything beyond because it is there and you get loot. most enjoy rolling dice and killing the mobs as much as the guys, they just want a social reason for doing it in my experince.

As for the BoEF from my understanding it sold extermnly well, I don't know the exact numbers but I know where I live the local shops have been unable to keep a copy in stock and last week they had 3 special orders for a copy. (btw I live in the midwest)

Now to the comments about rolling dice for social interactiosn ect, personally i have players play out all social interaction. If I feel they did really well I don't require a roll(depending on the difficluty of the roll of course) and if I do require a roll then i give a bonus by how well i thought they did. But I always give a bonus for trying to role play it out as a way to encourage it(barring them saying something stupid like... King I did your daughter last night on your throne) a final thing we do is roll 2d10 to create a more avg range on skill checks, that makes skills a bit more important.

[Pramas]

What I was interested in picking up was the design and marketing reasons behind this, and the particular areas that made the designers shy away from the d20 licence because of the limitations it applied to the Blue Rose setting.

We decided to make Blue Rose OGL because the game is an attempt to bring new people into roleplaying. There has never been an RPG for this genre before, despite its popularity in fiction. We wanted to make it easy for new people to get into. It would have been a tremendously hard sell to say, "So you like Mercedes Lackey, eh? Well, first, go over there and buy three $30 books that are different than what you like. Once you've digested those, come back to us and spend more money on a book that gives you the setting you actually want and tells you what you parts of those other books to ignore." It's a whole lot easier to say, "Like that? Then you want this."

[SimonCollins]

We decided to make Blue Rose OGL because the game is an attempt to bring new people into roleplaying. There has never been an RPG for this genre before, despite its popularity in fiction. We wanted to make it easy for new people to get into.

Thanks for the insight.

I believe that more and more games will be going down the OGL route over the next couple of years, and I think that it's an exciting turn of events - it may be the saviour of the 'campaign setting' product in the short term. And, as you say, hopefully it will also bring new people to roleplaying.

Bravo, and good luck. I'll be picking up Blue Rose myself.

Simon Collins

[Chairman Aeon]

Now to the comments about rolling dice for social interactiosn ect, personally i have players play out all social interaction. If I feel they did really well I don't require a roll(depending on the difficluty of the roll of course) and if I do require a roll then i give a bonus by how well i thought they did. But I always give a bonus for trying to role play it out as a way to encourage it(barring them saying something stupid like... King I did your daughter last night on your throne) a final thing we do is roll 2d10 to create a more avg range on skill checks, that makes skills a bit more important.

Despite my hyperbole earlier, I always give my players a chance to roleplay out of a social situation. As you say though there are just some situations where it be a very low charisma trying to butter up someone or the message/words chosen that will either immediatelty require a roll (ie a chance to fail) and/or the inevitable "everyone roll Initiative".

I like the idea of 2d10, but have yet to actually try it.

Iain.

[Dark Mistress]

We have been using the 2d10 for awhile now, the players like it. The over all effect as far as i can tell is this. Those with only a few points in a skill rarely accomplish it unless it is easy task, and those with a lot of skill points ussually acomplishing the task unless it is very hard. In other words those that spend the skill points in something using this system can depend on that skill more.

[Michael Tree]

Assuming that combat is not the focus of the game, M&M combat rarely lasts more than 3 rounds with equal opponents, much less if unequal.

The damage save mechanic also requires much less bookkeeping, so it keeps the game mechanics more "in the background". It's easier to remain in character when the GM says "your enemy wounds you," than when he says "your enemy inflicts 23 hit points of damage. Mark them off your character sheet."

[Michael Heacock]

Assuming that combat is not the focus of the game, M&M combat rarely lasts more than 3 rounds with equal opponents, much less if unequal.

I also requires much less bookkeeping, so it keeps the game mechanics more "in the background". It's easier to remain in character when the GM says "your enemy wounds you," than when he says "your enemy inflicts 23 hit points of damage. Mark them off your character sheet."

I think Aeon is overstating it a bit. With proper use of Hero Points, most M&M combats will average 5 or so rounds. And an entire combat, with a table of six, will usually last 30 minutes or less.

Take a D&D combat with a full table of 10th levelers. It will usually last 10 or so rounds and can take upto 2 hours to complete.

[Chairman Aeon]

I think Aeon is overstating it a bit. With proper use of Hero Points, most M&M combats will average 5 or so rounds. And an entire combat, with a table of six, will usually last 30 minutes or less.

Not entirely. The length of the fight is influnced by how many Hero Points are available. A fight at the beginning of a session will take longer than a fight at the end of the session, but it also depends on the characters that are fighting. Any character that can force another to make frequent damage saves with a decent damage is going to cut through opponents quickly. The opponent will have to make a bunch of damage saves, but can only use one hero point per turn.

I think the thing though that ill help for Blue Rose is the mook rule. Often a fight only exists to tie up the players momentarily to say allow a villain to get away. A fight in D&D is about a 30 minute investment in time. The right amount of mooks in M&M combat will make it so the villain can escape and combat will be done very quickly.

This all assumes that you are using the same tables as in M&M and not shorter tables and less states like Injury from Unearthed Arcana or other variants.

Iain.

[tetsujin28]

I guess I'm showing my maleness here, but I don't feel I need rules for social interaction.

I tend to agree. The best rules I've seen for social interaction are in White Wolf's Mind's Eye Theater LARP system. Other than that...I dunno. I have yet to see a dice-based mechanic that really gives a roleplaying reflection of social interaction.

Did either of you ever play Lace and Steel? The rules in that game were great, and led to all sorts of novel-like goodness.

[The Human Pest]

Sounds like a great idea. And I can see why the M&M damage save mechanic was used.

I shudder to think how my Hackmaster group would react in this sort of setting.





On second thought, that might be fun to see...

[Capellan]

For me, it was the mention of Tamora Pierce, rather than Mercedes Lackey, that made Blue Rose a 'must buy'.

And as for Lace and Steel ... that game rocks

[daDiceGuy]

Found this wandering the web today. Thought it was kinda cool in light of the games name. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/SciTech/Living/rose_blue_040507-1.html