silly question re: alternate energy form and ghost touch

[torzan]

Ok. This may be a silly question but I am very used to asking those by now

One of my players wants to make an alternate form energy person. He noticed that one of the benefits is incorporeality, along with flight and an energy blast. He then asked whether the ghost touch extra was included with the energy blast.

Now I am not an evil pirate so I said sure its included. He then asked if it was included for other potential attacks, ie if he wanted to also have an energy field. Now I am not sure, so I thought I would turn to the smart people on the boards here.

First question: Does the alternate form energy come with the ghost touch extra?

Second question: If other powers are added as extras or power stunts to the alternate form power, does the ghost touch extra have to be bought for each extra and power stunt?

Gracias mis amigos.

[slaughterj]

Well, if you have Incorporeal, you take the Ghost Touch extra on the Incorporeal power, and it should make all of your effects affect the real world, as opposed to taking Ghost Touch on a single attack power.

Breaking down Alt-Form: Energy, you get:
- Incorporeal
- Extra: Ghost Touch
- Extra: Immunities
- 2 of these 3 Extras: Energy Field, Energy Blast, Flight (IIRC)

That gives you the 5pp/PL power.

[torzan]

We broke down the cost of alternate form energy last night also.

Breaking down Alt-Form: Energy, you get:
- Incorporeal
- Extra: Ghost Touch
- Extra: Immunities
- 2 of these 3 Extras: Energy Field, Energy Blast, Flight (IIRC)

That gives you the 5pp/PL power.

Adding in the ghost touch extra actually increases the cost to six pp/PL:

2 for incorporeal
1 for Ghost Touch extra
1 for immunities extra
2 points for (2 of the 3 other powers as extras)

How have other people handled this in their games?

[Carnifex]

From the faq:

Do you need to buy the Ghost Touch extra to use the attack powers associated with incorporeal Alternate Forms (such as Suffocate in gaseous form)?
No. It’s included in the cost of Alternate Form.

[mgg]

Yep, it's in the faq.

Note, that, unlike Ghost Touch on Incorporeal, it only affects the attack, not everything the energy being does.

[torzan]

So if my player wants to add the energy field in addition to the energy blasts to his character, does the free ghost touch on alternate form also apply to additional attacks?

[Carnifex]

So if my player wants to add the energy field in addition to the energy blasts to his character, does the free ghost touch on alternate form also apply to additional attacks?

since the faq users "powers" in the plural, I would say yes.

[slaughterj]

We broke down the cost of alternate form energy last night also.

Breaking down Alt-Form: Energy, you get:
- Incorporeal
- Extra: Ghost Touch
- Extra: Immunities
- 2 of these 3 Extras: Energy Field, Energy Blast, Flight (IIRC)

That gives you the 5pp/PL power.

Adding in the ghost touch extra actually increases the cost to six pp/PL:

2 for incorporeal
1 for Ghost Touch extra
1 for immunities extra
2 points for (2 of the 3 other powers as extras)

How have other people handled this in their games?

Ack, did the breakdown too quick But the breakdowns should've been provided for each power so they don't have to all be reverse engineered, it'd avoid a lot of problems

[mgg]

They don't all break down nicely. Energy form is one of those that doesn't.

[torzan]

Thanks for the responses. They are helping me feel my way around this issue.

1 If I have a player who has incorporeality but then takes the ghost touch extra, do all of her powers bundled with the incorporeality benefit from the ghost touch extra?

Note, that, unlike Ghost Touch on Incorporeal, it only affects the attack, not everything the energy being does.

2 Does this mean that an alternate form energy PC could not carry his teammates in the air or catch falling objects?

3 Could a regular incorporeal PC if they had the ghost touch extra?

[mgg]

Thanks for the responses. They are helping me feel my way around this issue.

1 If I have a player who has incorporeality but then takes the ghost touch extra, do all of her powers bundled with the incorporeality benefit from the ghost touch extra?

Note, that, unlike Ghost Touch on Incorporeal, it only affects the attack, not everything the energy being does.

2 Does this mean that an alternate form energy PC could not carry his teammates in the air or catch falling objects?

3 Could a regular incorporeal PC if they had the ghost touch extra?

1. Not just the powers bundled with incorporeality, all of the characters powers and abilities, limited by the rank of incorporeality. There has been some discussion on the play balance of this.

2. Correct. The energy PC may not carry teammates or catch falling objects.

3. Yes they could-- As far as I can tell. The incorporeal character may carry teammate or catch falling objects. Note that these teammates and falling objects do not become incorporeal.

[slaughterj]

2 Does this mean that an alternate form energy PC could not carry his teammates in the air or catch falling objects?

2. Correct. The energy PC may not carry teammates or catch falling objects.

3. Yes they could-- As far as I can tell. The incorporeal character may carry teammate or catch falling objects. Note that these teammates and falling objects do not become incorporeal.

Where do you get that from? Wondering where this difference arises from?

[Zenon]

The answer to question #3 is: No

The problem arises with the difference between the Ghost Touch Extra and the Partially Corporeal Extra.

Ghost Touch - only for powers/attacks to affect the material world. Even with the Ghost Touch on Alternate Form (Energy), a character could not open doors, catch things in mid-air with his physical body/hands (but could with powers like TK with Ghost Touch).

To directly manipulate the surrounding enviroment (doors, control switches, punching someone with your fist) the character would need the Partial Incorporeal extra. This allows him to make parts of himself corporeal in order to interact with the "real world".

Does that explain it a little better?

[slaughterj]

The answer to question #3 is: No

The problem arises with the difference between the Ghost Touch Extra and the Partially Corporeal Extra.

Ghost Touch - only for powers/attacks to affect the material world. Even with the Ghost Touch on Alternate Form (Energy), a character could not open doors, catch things in mid-air with his physical body/hands (but could with powers like TK with Ghost Touch).

To directly manipulate the surrounding enviroment (doors, control switches, punching someone with your fist) the character would need the Partial Incorporeal extra. This allows him to make parts of himself corporeal in order to interact with the "real world".

Does that explain it a little better?

Still seems odd that I can punch someone with my Incorporeal character with Ghost Touch, and presumably could grapple them as well, yet could not catch them.

[Carnifex]

The answer to question #3 is: No

The problem arises with the difference between the Ghost Touch Extra and the Partially Corporeal Extra.

Ghost Touch - only for powers/attacks to affect the material world. Even with the Ghost Touch on Alternate Form (Energy), a character could not open doors, catch things in mid-air with his physical body/hands (but could with powers like TK with Ghost Touch).

To directly manipulate the surrounding enviroment (doors, control switches, punching someone with your fist) the character would need the Partial Incorporeal extra. This allows him to make parts of himself corporeal in order to interact with the "real world".

Does that explain it a little better?

Still seems odd that I can punch someone with my Incorporeal character with Ghost Touch, and presumably could grapple them as well, yet could not catch them.

Hmm, can you? It sounds like, technically, only powers are effected by ghosttouch, so your normal ST wouldn't count when punching, only Super ST. Don't know, don't have the book handy

[Zenon]

Still seems odd that I can punch someone with my Incorporeal character with Ghost Touch, and presumably could grapple them as well, yet could not catch them.

Personally, I wouldn't let physical attacks of any kind happen without the Partial Incorporeal extra (that's my judgement, don't know if you'll find it in the book). That resolves the issues you have. I also wouldn't let Ghost Touch be applied to Super Str for the same reason.

It's a GM call. You have to find something that works for you.

[Anthony]

Still seems odd that I can punch someone with my Incorporeal character with Ghost Touch, and presumably could grapple them as well, yet could not catch them.

Um...I don't think you _can_ punch people with ghost touch. Ghost touch only talks about powers.

If you buy TK, however, it will work in combination with incorporeal/ghost touch.

[slaughterj]

Still seems odd that I can punch someone with my Incorporeal character with Ghost Touch, and presumably could grapple them as well, yet could not catch them.

Um...I don't think you _can_ punch people with ghost touch. Ghost touch only talks about powers.

If you buy TK, however, it will work in combination with incorporeal/ghost touch.

My character has the S-STR power and Incorporeal - where's the difference between him punching someone versus using the Strike power (which is effectively one of the building blocks of S-STR) versus attacking them with a kinetic energy EB? Seems people are stuck on some sort of energy vs. physical distinction here that has to be read into the power and Extra, rather than is stated. Don't have my book handy though.

And why have to have S-STR? What about a human torch type who could turn into fire, thus would hit people, triggering his EF?

[Anthony]

My character has the S-STR power and Incorporeal - where's the difference between him punching someone versus using the Strike power (which is effectively one of the building blocks of S-STR) versus attacking them with a kinetic energy EB?

Punching them adds your Str bonus. I wouldn't allow the Strike power either.

[slaughterj]

My character has the S-STR power and Incorporeal - where's the difference between him punching someone versus using the Strike power (which is effectively one of the building blocks of S-STR) versus attacking them with a kinetic energy EB?

Punching them adds your Str bonus. I wouldn't allow the Strike power either.

Obviously a rule is needed, rather than willy-nilly decisions here. IIRC, the book says that Ghost Touch allows an Incorporeal's attacks to affect corporeal, so how does one draw a line that doesn't simply include all the Incorporeal's attacks?

[Zenon]

Obviously a rule is needed, rather than willy-nilly decisions here. IIRC, the book says that Ghost Touch allows an Incorporeal's attacks to affect corporeal, so how does one draw a line that doesn't simply include all the Incorporeal's attacks?

Ghost Touch modifies an Attack Effect. Super Str by itself does not generate an attack roll (it is not an Attack effect, IIRC it is an Attribute effect), thus it does not gain the benefit of the Ghost touch extra. Grappling is a melee action totally unrelated to the Incorporeal power, thus it also does not gain the benefit of the Ghost Touch extra.

Powers that generate an attack roll by themselves (like Snare, Dazzle, EB, TK, etc.) can gain the Ghost Touch Extra. Basically any power that says in it's description "to use the power make an attack roll". [edit - basically any power that falls in the Attack Effect category.]

If it is meant for the character is to affect the physical enviroment directly (flip switch, open door, hit someone with fist), then Incorporeal should have the Partially Incorporeal extra to accomplish this.

[slaughterj]

Obviously a rule is needed, rather than willy-nilly decisions here. IIRC, the book says that Ghost Touch allows an Incorporeal's attacks to affect corporeal, so how does one draw a line that doesn't simply include all the Incorporeal's attacks?

Ghost Touch modifies an Attack Effect. Super Str by itself does not generate an attack roll (it is not an Attack effect, IIRC it is an Attribute effect), thus it does not gain the benefit of the Ghost touch extra. Grappling is a melee action totally unrelated to the Incorporeal power, thus it also does not gain the benefit of the Ghost Touch extra.

Powers that generate an attack roll by themselves (like Snare, Dazzle, EB, TK, etc.) can gain the Ghost Touch Extra. Basically any power that says in it's description "to use the power make an attack roll". [edit - basically any power that falls in the Attack Effect category.]

If it is meant for the character is to affect the physical enviroment directly (flip switch, open door, hit someone with fist), then Incorporeal should have the Partially Incorporeal extra to accomplish this.

Interesting stuff. Actually, S-STR is partly an Attack Effect, per Steve Kenson, which I asked him in relation to one of the effects of S-STR being the power Strike (which evidently is an Attack Effect).

S-STR is the following:
Strike
- Extra: x2 Lifting
- Extra: +1 on STR checks/rolls

As an extra on an attack power, Ghost Touch evidently allows use by corporeals against Incorporeals, and vice versa. I don't know that it does anything more than that. As an extra on Incorporeal, it seems as if it allows all of ones attacks to work on corporeals while Incorporeal - it isn't clear that it allows for the reverse, but one can just go Incorporeal and attack other Incorporeals anyway.

[Zenon]

Interesting stuff. Actually, S-STR is partly an Attack Effect, per Steve Kenson, which I asked him in relation to one of the effects of S-STR being the power Strike (which evidently is an Attack Effect).

S-STR is the following:
Strike
- Extra: x2 Lifting
- Extra: +1 on STR checks/rolls

As an extra on an attack power, Ghost Touch evidently allows use by corporeals against Incorporeals, and vice versa. I don't know that it does anything more than that. As an extra on Incorporeal, it seems as if it allows all of ones attacks to work on corporeals while Incorporeal - it isn't clear that it allows for the reverse, but one can just go Incorporeal and attack other Incorporeals anyway.

I knew about the Super Str breakdown of effects, but the combined power is not classed as an Attack Effect in the powers section. I really wish all of them were labeled as to which group they fall under.

I agree with you that this is something that they really need to clarify and drop into the FAQ, it seems to come up alot.

[slaughterj]

Interesting stuff. Actually, S-STR is partly an Attack Effect, per Steve Kenson, which I asked him in relation to one of the effects of S-STR being the power Strike (which evidently is an Attack Effect).

S-STR is the following:
Strike
- Extra: x2 Lifting
- Extra: +1 on STR checks/rolls

As an extra on an attack power, Ghost Touch evidently allows use by corporeals against Incorporeals, and vice versa. I don't know that it does anything more than that. As an extra on Incorporeal, it seems as if it allows all of ones attacks to work on corporeals while Incorporeal - it isn't clear that it allows for the reverse, but one can just go Incorporeal and attack other Incorporeals anyway.

I knew about the Super Str breakdown of effects, but the combined power is not classed as an Attack Effect in the powers section. I really wish all of them were labeled as to which group they fall under.

I agree with you that this is something that they really need to clarify and drop into the FAQ, it seems to come up alot.

There's definitely lots of gray issues here. As for the powers' section breakdown, I don't know how good that is, IIRC, for example, regeneration isn't listed anywhere...

[mgg]

Ghost touch, as an extra for Incorporeal specifically mentions 'ability or power bonuses'. Strength is an ability. No where in the paragraph does it specify attacks. I agree that it is a logical interpretation to restrict Ghost Touch to limit it when compared to Partially Incorporeal, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone puts that in the errata, but the rules read differently.