Snare Question

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Snare Question

Postby Shawn » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:53 pm

One of the PCs in the campaign I'm running has Cosmic Energy Control with the Snare power stunt, and he uses it to most terrible effect. He has Rapid Shot, allowing him to make two ranged attacks per round at a -2 penalty. What he tends to do is to make two Snare shots against a foe who hasn't taken an action yet. If they fail the first, he has them entangled, then the second renders them helpless, so they can't even attempt to escape when their turn comes around.

Just so I'm certain I'm not making a mistake, it -is- legal to use Snare in this manner, right? And I can't find anything that indicates he can't use it against more than one opponent. For instance, if he snare's Captain Thunder in round 3, he can turn around and attempt to snare Siren in round 4 now that the good Captain is helpless.

Your assistance is appreciated.
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Postby BruteForce » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:33 pm

Actually, checking the Snare power description, I've come the conclusion that while the player isn't doing anything wrong by hitting opponents with Snare twice in a round (though that is kind of a cheap tactic, and I can't see it being fun for him or anyone else for long), I think your group may not be interpreting the effects quite right. It doesn't say anywhere in the description that the victim of a double-snare "can't even attempt to escape." What it does say is that the victim is "helpless" (which is a very specific term, detailed in the Condition Summary, that basically means anyone who decides to attack the character is at a huge advantage because he's unable to effectively maneuver, fight back or defend himself), and that the victim is "unable to move," which, I think, means that he can't move around on the battlefield (think of it like "moving" a figure on the table in D&D), and that his hands aren't free do do things like, say, draw a weapon or cast spells. It doesn't necessarly mean he's completely immobilized. He can still attempt an Escape Artist check to slip free (that's really more "wriggling" than outright moving), and if he's got a power he can use to damage the Snare without moving (like, say, Energy Field), he can still activate that to attempt to break free that way. Or, as was recently mentioned in another post, he could use the Teleport power to get away.
Last edited by BruteForce on Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anthony » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:39 am

Or, while he can't attack the snare, he can still make a strength check to break it.
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Postby Steve Kenson » Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:53 am

Just to clarify: characters who are bound and helpless by two successful applications of the snare power are still capable of action, they just can't move. They can, however, still use Strength or a power that doesn't requier movement (like Energy Blast) to break the snare, can still use things like mental powers, and so forth. "Helpless" is a specific condition, it doesn't mean the character is out of the game or even out of the fight.
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Postby horned god » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:50 am

With normal ranged attacks such as Energy Blast, using Rapid shot is one thing but can you also then do a ranged power twice as that is what rapid shot would allow you do to. So could you Stun, Paralysis, Corrosion, Fatigue, and ofcourse Snare twice.

I think it requires a half action and that I would not allow any of these to be used via rapid shot. They are ranged attacks and yet aren't normal attacks they are uses of a power. Right there I just heard every player reading go 'hold on there' because they will try and do this. Sorry suck it up buddy, it is not the end of the world.

Here is the alternative. Allow it and then have your villains use it, and do so liberally, In fact make the heros choke on it, give the villian the power plus Autofire, multifire, and ofcourse they need rapid shot and point blank shot, all that means they get, you guessed it, 3 shots of Snare, not just two, and since they are villains they aren't truly limited in the amount of pp used to make them. If the GM wants a PL 11 villian go for it, making him 12 just cuz he needs extra points to make the players choken of the umteenth saving throw, sure why not. It works both ways and technically the villians can be built with more pp so they have the advantage.

I say avoid all that crap and just allow people to use Rapid shot, and thus autofire with Damage based ranged attacks like I suspect was the original intension, so that powers which require fortitude or reflex or will saves you can't do this. Except for Mental Blast which is technically a damage based power only that it is Will save technically but I would not allow Mind Control and Rapid Shot or something like that. Otherwise who would not spend 2 points for rapid shot, everyone would including if the GM is savvy all the villiains. Again I'd avoid granting such an advantage like that and limit rapid shot to damage based powers plus mental blast.
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Postby slaughterj » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:00 am

horned god wrote:With normal ranged attacks such as Energy Blast, using Rapid shot is one thing but can you also then do a ranged power twice as that is what rapid shot would allow you do to. So could you Stun, Paralysis, Corrosion, Fatigue, and ofcourse Snare twice.

I think it requires a half action and that I would not allow any of these to be used via rapid shot. They are ranged attacks and yet aren't normal attacks they are uses of a power. Right there I just heard every player reading go 'hold on there' because they will try and do this. Sorry suck it up buddy, it is not the end of the world.

Here is the alternative. Allow it and then have your villains use it, and do so liberally, In fact make the heros choke on it, give the villian the power plus Autofire, multifire, and ofcourse they need rapid shot and point blank shot, all that means they get, you guessed it, 3 shots of Snare, not just two, and since they are villains they aren't truly limited in the amount of pp used to make them. If the GM wants a PL 11 villian go for it, making him 12 just cuz he needs extra points to make the players choken of the umteenth saving throw, sure why not. It works both ways and technically the villians can be built with more pp so they have the advantage.

I say avoid all that crap and just allow people to use Rapid shot, and thus autofire with Damage based ranged attacks like I suspect was the original intension, so that powers which require fortitude or reflex or will saves you can't do this. Except for Mental Blast which is technically a damage based power only that it is Will save technically but I would not allow Mind Control and Rapid Shot or something like that. Otherwise who would not spend 2 points for rapid shot, everyone would including if the GM is savvy all the villiains. Again I'd avoid granting such an advantage like that and limit rapid shot to damage based powers plus mental blast.


It really is no big deal that Rapid Shot lets you take 2 ranged attacks of any type of ranged attack. So what if someone shoots you twice with Stun or Paralysis? If one works, that's no worse than if the first of 2 shots with an EB Stuns an opponent.

All of the attack powers, EB or otherwise, require a half action, so I don't understand what you mean by saying you wouldn't allow them to be used via rapid shot?
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Postby DrObvious » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:20 am

Just checking, when you say he has rapid shot, your not just talking about the feat, he also purchased it with Cosmic Power's Snare, right?

If so, I say go ahead and let him use it. He did spend the points after all.

If it really is causing problems, talk to him about it. mabye you could suggest he only uses it against tougher baddies. Mabye offer to let him take the flaw "requires HP to use" on the multishot, and give him 10 (or however many) PPs to spread around elsewhere.
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Postby Novac » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:33 am

Or just kill his character. *shrug* I have a personal pet peeve against players who bend the rules to the point of ruining others fun just because they can.
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Postby Artimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:58 pm

I disagree with just flat out killing his character. As a player, I get attached to my characters. If a character gets killed, it had BETTER be bad rolls of the dice or something. I mean, "Bang, you're dead" really went out of style after most of us hit age 12 or so...

I would either ask that he hold back on using it a bit or tell him that he needs to get rid of Rapid Shot and that he can spend 2 points elsewhere.

Remember, you want to keep things fair for him too.
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Postby horned god » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:10 pm

Artimus would maiming him be ok, he could get a new flaw too. A one armed hero he'd develope in his character growth. LOL
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Postby barbedwings » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:26 pm

Well, as far as I understand there is no reason whatsoever that Snare can't be Rapid shot... (I think any ranged attack effect can be rapid shot) So what if the players are using rapid shot? In my campaign most of the players have eased away from multiple attacks because that -2 penalty actually matters against someone with a high defense.

So here are my suggestions:

Pump the defense of your villians more making multi-shot ranged characters have to pick and choose their shots, maybe picking up point blank shot (and being closer) rather than firing off a flury of powers.

Pump the initiative bonus on your villians, as it takes a lot of "oomph" away from the "double-snare-before-they-can-go" tactic if the villians go first a lot more often.

Use villain characters with powers that are not restricted by Snares, like mental powers and the like.

Use larger numbers of opponents (hence making multiple attacks on one person less useful)...Even a group of minions with Autofire weapons helping each other pick off a single hero can make life dangerous. I don't remember the exact rules off the top of my head about minions focusing fire on one person for an attack bonus, but it can be pretty rough on the heros.

Absolutely make your villians use Rapid shot/Rapid Strike! There is no reason for an effective tactic to be used only by the heros.

The last one would be... if the character is constantly effective and keeps winning battles using this tactic, utilize villian characters that are aware of that tactic and have prepared specially against it. A smart villian does research on his foes and it's amazing how useful Anti-Snare armor, or spells would be... if the person continues to be overpowering, then have any opponents the party faces focus entirely on him as the most dangerous member. By this time the player should have figured out some limitations to his rapid fire snare and may try some new tactics, because otherwise he is likely to be killed outright as the big "threat".
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Postby Novac » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:27 pm

Artimus wrote:I disagree with just flat out killing his character. As a player, I get attached to my characters. If a character gets killed, it had BETTER be bad rolls of the dice or something. I mean, "Bang, you're dead" really went out of style after most of us hit age 12 or so...

I would either ask that he hold back on using it a bit or tell him that he needs to get rid of Rapid Shot and that he can spend 2 points elsewhere.

Remember, you want to keep things fair for him too.


I agree, as a player that things should be fair on both sides. However I have also seen games fall apart because of the Lone Munchkin (cue the music). Someone that comes to the table doing things that obviously make the rest of the group unhappy need to go.

Take D&D, we had a guy (who was an idiot) that just refused to mesh with the party. We were all good aligned (The GM's firm no-evil rule) so he played Neutral (as evil). He tried every time he could to raise zombies and skeletons. Why? Because despite being a grown man, he hadn't got past the 'undead minions are nifty' stage of D&D. He'd pause the game to force the GM to look up rules when a player had a good idea and twist the rules to his advantage at other areas. We all hated him, we still do, but the guy got the boot.

The reason for this story? If someone is making your game less than fun, they're baggage. After all when gaming isn't fun it isn't a game, it's a chore.
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Postby Artimus » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:28 pm

But undead minions ARE nifty...
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Postby barbedwings » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:37 pm

He has a point, undead minions are pretty cool.

Granted though, if someone is ruining the game for everyone else, it's clearly time for them to get the boot. The idea is to have fun, and when a campaign has been set up a particular way, you either have fun playing it that way or you find a different campaign that fits your ideals more.

I recently ended my 3 1/2 year Intermediate D&D campaign because several of the players were not interested in actually roleplaying and they basically wanted to hang out and goof off. I enjoy getting into character, getting involved in the story and actually roleplaying... which was a goal that did not seem to mesh with some of the players and rather than make a big stink I just went on hiatus. The good news is that in it's place, another friend is running a Mutants and Masterminds game!
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Postby bcr19374 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:28 am

Novac wrote:Or just kill his character. *shrug* I have a personal pet peeve against players who bend the rules to the point of ruining others fun just because they can.


Even if that is your pet peeve, is killing his character out of hand the best solution? Why do that when you can discuss it with the player or make a rules change?
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Postby Nightlynx » Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:57 am

bcr19374 wrote:
Novac wrote:Or just kill his character. *shrug* I have a personal pet peeve against players who bend the rules to the point of ruining others fun just because they can.


Even if that is your pet peeve, is killing his character out of hand the best solution? Why do that when you can discuss it with the player or make a rules change?


I honestly think that Novac's comment needs to be taken with a gain of salt - 'sides for the most part most of us started gaming from a D&D stand point! One where just 'kill'em' was not only an acceptable solution but a great way to releive stress :D

The way I read his post - the just kill them was a last resort kinda comment and i am assuming jokingly made! Besides there is to much fun to be had framing the Players character for murder, having him tried, found guilty, and role playing an espisode of OZ where he becomes some super villians bitch :lol:

But whatever works for you guys is cool!

peace and good gaming

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Postby Artimus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:02 am

Thank you, it is good to know that there ARE other GM's out there who feel at least a LITTLE bad about killing people's characters.

Another idea: Talk to the player out of game, away from everybody else. Explain to him what you have explained to us, that he's taking the fun away from everybody else. Give him one of my two choices I listed above. For example, ASK the player which of these options he would prefer.

-Start another character
-Fight higher defense villians
-Trade out Rapid Shot for something else
-Agree to cut back on the number of uses

Remember, be fair to everybody here, including him.
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Postby gunsnammo » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:17 pm

Novac wrote:
Artimus wrote:Take D&D, we had a guy (who was an idiot) that just refused to mesh with the party. We were all good aligned (The GM's firm no-evil rule) so he played Neutral (as evil). He tried every time he could to raise zombies and skeletons. Why? Because despite being a grown man, he hadn't got past the 'undead minions are nifty' stage of D&D. He'd pause the game to force the GM to look up rules when a player had a good idea and twist the rules to his advantage at other areas. We all hated him, we still do, but the guy got the boot.


Hey,

I have just one question. What were these alleged "good" characters doing when the guy was summoning up undead? I wasn't there so I can't say the guys wasn't a total jerk but I find that those type of people are better handled through good roleplay and decisions made by the party. I've done stupid stuff before that ended up getting my character killed or booted out of the party and afterward I was like... oh, I deserved that... The rules lawyering aside, I always enjoy a good arguement with another party member better than getting kicked out of a game.

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