Single Alternate Form

This board is locked, but is preserved here as an archive of all your hard work posting. Please register on the new M&M boards, over at http://atomicthinktank.com/

Moderator: Super Moderators

Single Alternate Form

Postby horned god » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:49 pm

Reading alternate form I get the impression many comic book heros can turn ito a variety of forms and yet looking at real comic heros most of them turn into one alternative form.

I think you should get one and only one form when you buy alternative form: this means one energy type, or one semi-solid type, or one solid form type, etc. ONLY one.

If you want another type pay an Extra for it, not Stunt cost like listed, this means you want a second energy form then pay the Extra cost for it, and if you then want a solid form too that would be another Extra.

This means if you want a hero to turn into Radiation and Light and Rock, then pick Alternate Form-Energy (Radiation) [extra: Energy Form (Light), Solid Form (Rock). As why on earth should someone turn into Rock too other than the player wishes it but ok pay Extra cost if you want this.

So this means you'd by the rules be able to play someone who can turn into a host of forms but either you'll have a lower rank and thus end up like Zan on the Wonder Twins or a single Form or a few related forms like Photon (captain marvel of the avengers).

The book currently says you pick an Alternative type and get to turn into any of that given type for the 5 pp per rank cost thus if you pick energy you can literally turn into any energy. This sets up for the average player to take this meaning the world will be populated more so with such characters who take this.

I see nothing wrong with taking multiple forms but it should not be standard it should cost and should be based on concept. Ok you have the concept but to fit that concept you'll pay a lot for it as your buying a lot of extra freedom which having access to many extra forms gives you. Comic heros aren't made that way standard.

Sandman can't turn into Light for 2 points, according to the rules as writen he could and any player would do this? Sounds not right to me Steve. I think you wrote this power poorly and gave way too much away for 5pp. For that cost since it includes a number of powers as extras such as protection and incorporeal thus you should get a single type.

This way Colossus could take Alternative Form Solid and at rank 10 and it should cost 50 points, no flaw needed it should simply take Organic Metal as his single solid form. Sandman same thing, he takes Alernative Form Semi-Solid, no flaw limiting him to only sand, but instead he picks his single semi-solid type: Sand.

And since players might want to go beyond the normal comic style of one single form, they should pay Extra cost thus a Colossus who can also turn into Marshmellow form pays 1 pp per rank extra thus gaining Semi-Solid (Marshmellow form). Not the Stunt cost.

Anyone agree or disagree? I am posting as I think in the future I will make it a house rule and thus throw out the official Alernative Form rule as write and re-write it so it reads 'single type' in each entry and under Extras it lists 'extra form or type (meaning type within the form you currently have). I would like to see it officially errata'd but ofcourse the original intent by Steve or others could have been otherwise which if so then I think they were wrong in designing it with so much for so little. Changing energy types or solid types extra is very very very......powerful if you think about it.

Why? Because many who have energy blast are locked into one or two types, not ten types of blasts thus if you are say in Wind form and someone has Wind Control your screwed but by spending half an action you can poof suddently become rock form or heck even Light form and thus suddently be mostly or all immune to Wind Control.

I don't see Johnny Storm saying 'oh no my flame is not going to help me vs that water based attack, better alter form and give myself cold based form instead. Not that johnny storm has alterantive form (instead he has energy field) but the point is, heros should not be able to dart from form to form so easily for so cheap a cost it turns them less from cosmic heros and more into AD&D character sorcerers with powers far greater than most comic heros and more in line with a Dr. Strange who mystically might just do something like this.

There is nothing wrong with Zan of the Wonder Twins as a concept either but the way the rules read that seems to be the standard supported concept and in fact in comics he would be an oddity not a standard. I know then that a PL 10 character starting out could not have more than say four or five forms if in fact they had other stuff and wanted it to be like rank 5 or 6 at most so that for the freedom of so many forms you'd pay the cost of having a lower rank for your power. Seems a fair price.

As it is now you can have a rank 9 alternative form energy (any energy type of which are at least 9 to 11 of them), and for like 8 to 10 more points you get all the other form types (solid, semi-solid, etc). Thus for like 55pp you can literally turn into any form of any of the listed types as a standard package almost. Wow didn't know that there were than many heros like this running around and yet as written there will be a lot of characters possibly like this, all you need to do is pay 55 points and poof your that plus a bag of chips. Making Sand man feel like a second-rate hack villian and making Colossus feel like the guy who designed him is less creative than your average gamer 'what do you mean I have one stupid metal form mr. designer of the comic, what is your problem I want to also be able to turn into marshmellow form too, and perhaps Sonic energy too, so make it happen'. Well in MnM Colossus you'd be in luck and have a lot more than you bargined form.
horned god
Groupie
Groupie
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 11:59 pm

Postby Kid Vorpal » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:38 pm

Um...maybe it's just me, but I don't think everyone's initial character concept involves an alternate form (or two, or three, or whatever). Having said that:

Maybe it's just the people I game with, but we all came up with certain concepts for our characters (like a martial artist, or a time manipulator) and stuck with them when statting them out. My character actually does have the Alternate Form power with two forms that are both metallic in nature, one solid and one liquid (okay, so I watched Terminator 2 too many times, sue me). I never once thought "gee, for a couple MORE points, I can add an energy form". It didn't fit the concept.

Any power is open to abuse in the wrong hands. I think in the end it just needs to be an exercise in GM approval and general common sense.

As a side note, I'm not sure that telling the author of the book that he wrote a power incorrectly is productive. I'm sure that there are plenty of us out here who are satisified with the power as written, and who have better things to do than criticize someone else's efforts. If you don't like the power, don't let your players use it (or don't use it on your own characters, if you're not a GM) - that seems like the most logical solution to me.

Okay, I'm done now. I think I'm going to stay away from the boards in the wee hours from now on - I get WAY too cranky.
One shot, one kill; two shots, sure thing.
User avatar
Kid Vorpal
Bystander
Bystander
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:47 am
Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN

Postby mgg » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:57 pm

The power takes full advantage of 'secondary effects'. Since you lose one set of powers and gain another, that is a 2 point stunt. The cost is correct.

This is how I treat the power with house rules: When you buy the power you get one form of one substance. For example: Energy, fire.

Each stunt will give you a different sort of form, or a different substance of the same form. For example, for 2 points the character could get Solid, granite. The character could also get Energy, Light for 2 points.

For an extra, the character can transform into any substance, provided the character has purchased the stunt. If you buy this extra, it is not necessary to pick substances for the stunts.

Example:
Elemental girl. Energy form, fire, PL 10+ stunt: Liquid form, water + stunt: solid form, stone + stunt: gaseous form, air. Total cost 56.
Elemental girl can transform into fire, earth, air, or water.

Elemental lad. Liquid form PL 10+ extra any substance + stunt, solid form + stunt, gaseous form + stunt, semisolid form. Total cost: 66.
Elemental lad can turn into just about any substance he wants to. Gold, mercury, sand, etc.

Rock-Scissors-Paper man. Solid form, metal, PL 12 + stunt, solid form rock(hardness 10) + stunt, solid form paper(hardness 1) + extra, natural weapons. Total cost: 76

Now, requiring an extra/stunt for multiple substances of the same form is the house rule. I think the official version of the power is any sort of substance is allowed for free with the chosen form.
mgg
Devotee
Devotee
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:22 pm

Postby Shalimar » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:00 am

If you don't want to be able to do something a power lets you do then what can you do? Oh, yeah, you can flaw it.
Shalimar
Bystander
Bystander
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:04 pm

Postby mgg » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:18 am

That's my problem with AF as it is written. Its okay straight up, but then when you start applying flaws it becomes too cheap.

Energy form 5pp. Flaw fire form only -1 = 4pp.

Compare to Incorporeal + Immunities + Flight + Energy field (+ ghost touch) = 6pp.

Granted the ghost touch only benefits the energy field, so it isn't quite as great as the full 6pp version, but the 2 pp per level point break is too much for me, which is the reason for the house rule.
mgg
Devotee
Devotee
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:22 pm

Postby horned god » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:20 am

I was not meaning to insult anyone only stating what I really thought of the power writeup. I am not saying it was necessarily done wrong as much as the way real game characters are made, grow in experience, etc. that perhaps it wasn't well suited for real game play is all but sure to make an initial static concept it could work.

Sure a player like yourself could play that character you made for three years and gain 120pp in the process and never once spend 2 of it to add another form. It could happen and that is great if it did but I feel most gamers would spend pp on more forms and do so willingly over the life of their character.

I noticed some have this attitude that 'you could choose that but why do so' approach. I assume and would like the rules to reflex the assumption the gamer would and thus the rules restrict them from doing so and if they the player wish to break that restriction fine but please pay the cost for doing so.

I also thought about making it a Stunt Cost for each energy type for example. It sounds reasonable but again it makes it cheap and thus easy to have more than one form. Again most real comic heros do not have more than one form or if they do they are like Photon and they are inter-related forms. Like the metal form mentioned above that can also turn liquid metal. He should pay 5pp per rank for metal form and then one more for a total of 6pp per rank to do solid metal and liquid metal that is what I'm saying and it makes sense.

Still why would you want to play a single form character when you could play Elemental Girl listed above for practically the same cost? Other than you the player limited your concept. At any point after you start your character you could technically alter your conept and add such powers or stunts to your character.

My real point then is a real character grows in XP and players a year from now or even a few months from now will sit down and say 'ok I have 10 more pp how do I spend it oh look I can add five more forms as they are each only a stunt wow cool'. And ofcourse raise the headache level of the GM who then has to deal with a character who can assume so many extra forms. Is it wrong that I have a problem with it and that I think it would have been written differently. Just because Steven wrote this game does not mean he is some angelic writer inspired by the Muse, he is simply a gamer like the rest of us and like many of us can write games and game material but he did in fact do a great job. So saying that one power is written poorly from a gamer stand point is one thing. It is my opinion plain and simple I never said I didn't ilke the game as a whole. No in fact its a great game and the way he modeled it on real comic history and all that is top notch but that doesn't mean every little facet is top notch.

Yes I could have simply not said anything, and house ruled it and that is what I think I will do but I thought since this is a forum for mulling over such ideas that I would post and in fact since I do think I would like to see it officially considered I posted. If were left like that then why as a player should I ever limit my concept to something other than what the rules naturall give me, which in this case is a lot of forms, so instead of simply Fire Girl I end up with the Concept Elemental Woman, same basic cost and I have a lot more variety. I think most players would choose something like that.
horned god
Groupie
Groupie
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 11:59 pm

Postby horned god » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:29 am

Another point to help show what it is I am really saying. If you buy Energy Blast you must buy energy blast more than once if you want more than one type of energy correct? This means if you want Energy Blast (Fire) you but it once, then pay full cost again for another type of energy.

With alternative form energy for example you get EB and thus when you alter form to another energy type you also alter form to another type of energy. Same goes with incorporeal form and adjusting what you are vundrible to, it makes it easy to simply fight a normal villian who like say Blizzard who is shooting Cold at you and won't have more than one energy type for the hero to simply switch from fire form which might be bad or good depending on how you look at it to something like electrical form. I feel if you get the benefit of another type of energy if EB is not a stunt to get another type of energy damage then you should not stunt it to do that same thing in alternative form unless you also paid at least the extra price to get another form.

The logic of 'just flaw' is missing the point entirely, why grant something and then require someone to flaw it. That is lame. Why not simply not give it, and if you want more pay more.
horned god
Groupie
Groupie
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 11:59 pm

Postby mouthymerc » Fri Aug 01, 2003 4:57 am

horned god wrote:Another point to help show what it is I am really saying. If you buy Energy Blast you must buy energy blast more than once if you want more than one type of energy correct? This means if you want Energy Blast (Fire) you but it once, then pay full cost again for another type of energy.


Actually, one could take Energy Blast and then all the other energy forms as Power Stunts. Unless he wanted to use multiple types of energy in one blast, in which case they would have to be taken as extras.

horned god wrote:Sure a player like yourself could play that character you made for three years and gain 120pp in the process and never once spend 2 of it to add another form. It could happen and that is great if it did but I feel most gamers would spend pp on more forms and do so willingly over the life of their character.

I noticed some have this attitude that 'you could choose that but why do so' approach. I assume and would like the rules to reflex the assumption the gamer would and thus the rules restrict them from doing so and if they the player wish to break that restriction fine but please pay the cost for doing so.


This could be said about a lot of powers in the book, though. Concept means a lot to people and this book is very concept driven. Your right, nothing is stopping the player from spending his power points on gaining new forms as power stunts, except the GM. But, then again, nothing is stopping the brick from spending his power points on gaining Mental Blast, either. If left unchecked, there could be a lot of abuse.

Personally, I let the player describe the character. If they take Alternate Form-Energy and describe it as changing into fire, that's great. They could also take Alternate Form-Energy and describe it as being able to change into any energy form. Why? Well, all the forms have the same effects, except for the Incorporeal weakness, maybe. Then again, I could say that all the energy forms have the same weakness.

You can only use one form at a time. Are you more versitile for taking these extra forms? For sure. But, I don't think of it as any different than, say, someone taking Energy Blast and then adding Dazzle, Stun, Fatigue, Paralysis all as Power Stunts. Or should we change this too?

If you really feel it is unbalanced, then by all means house rule it in your game. Personally, I don't feel it is out of whack.
The merc with the mouth! Zealot!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein
User avatar
mouthymerc
Super Poster
Super Poster
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby slaughterj » Fri Aug 01, 2003 6:13 am

It was my understanding that SK ruled that Alt-Form just gives you 1 Alt-Form. This is also logical from a points perspective - if you bought the underlying powers, e.g. Alt-Form: Solid's Protection, Super-STR, and Immunities, with the Sustained flaw, you'd get the same thing that you'd get as buying Alt-Form: Solid, however, given the fact that if you buy the underlying powers, that you don't get to changed into whatever you'd like, that doesn't mean that buying them via Alt-Form: Solid all of sudden lets you change into any sort of solid.

mgg is right, an additional Alt-Form is stunt, it is simply replacing the power in effect with another power in effect, e.g., just like how EB with the Dazzle PS works.
slaughterj
Seasoned Veteran
Seasoned Veteran
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:42 am

Postby mouthymerc » Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:21 am

Just a note.

One of the packages that can be chosen for Knock-Off is this:

Alternate Form +10 (solid form) [Extra: Continuous; Power Stunts: Extra Forms (energy, explosive, gaseous, liquid, semisolid); Flaw: Touch; Cost: 5 pp)

Now from this, I can construe that Knock-Off can take on the properties of whatever he can touch. Is he restricted to only one particular type of each form? Or is he able to take on the properties of any material?

The guy who takes Alternate Form-Solid and says he can change into just stone is no different from the guy who takes it and says he can change into stone, steel, whatever. Mechanically, they both work the same. The rest is just concept. I would not make someone pay (either as a Power Stunt or an Extra) for an additional form of the same type. For a different type, yes, but, not for the same type.
The merc with the mouth! Zealot!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein
User avatar
mouthymerc
Super Poster
Super Poster
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby mgg » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:35 am

Knock-off is the evidence that alternate form allows multiple substances. Your approach of making it the same cost whether you can switch to one or multiple substances is certainly valid. I just object to the idea that someone who transforms into once substance should get a flaw for it.

However this is how I house rule Knock-off. Change continuous to any substance.
mgg
Devotee
Devotee
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:22 pm

Postby slaughterj » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:38 am

mouthymerc wrote:Just a note.

One of the packages that can be chosen for Knock-Off is this:

Alternate Form +10 (solid form) [Extra: Continuous; Power Stunts: Extra Forms (energy, explosive, gaseous, liquid, semisolid); Flaw: Touch; Cost: 5 pp)

Now from this, I can construe that Knock-Off can take on the properties of whatever he can touch. Is he restricted to only one particular type of each form? Or is he able to take on the properties of any material?

The guy who takes Alternate Form-Solid and says he can change into just stone is no different from the guy who takes it and says he can change into stone, steel, whatever. Mechanically, they both work the same. The rest is just concept. I would not make someone pay (either as a Power Stunt or an Extra) for an additional form of the same type. For a different type, yes, but, not for the same type.


Well, let's take Alt-Form energy for example, then you'd let the person turn into any type of energy? Seems to me the result would be to enable the character to turn into fire to battle the cold/ice guy, turn into light to fight the darkness guy, etc., thus being better able to exploit potential flaws and weaknesses. That's why you get only 1 form, not all.

Though less obvious for Alt-Form Solid, you get the same potential issues - "hey, there's Superman, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Kryptonite!" or "hey, there's Werewolf, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Silver!".
slaughterj
Seasoned Veteran
Seasoned Veteran
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:42 am

Postby Ether » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:11 am

Just to toss a little beef in the pot:
My house ruling is as follows...

If you can Transform into "any" solid, then the maximum benefit you can get from that form is the lesser of either your power rank or the rank of the substance... a bit confusing? Here's an example...

Jon the Hat has Alternate Form: Solid at rank 10. His magical hat allows him to transform into ANY metal. So, if he battles Tepes, the evil vampire overlord, and decides to transform into silver (to take advantage of a vulnerability), his maximum bonus from the power would be equal to the hardness of silver (not in the book, but I would say that it's not quite up Iron's hardness... I would rule it as somewhere between 5 and 8, depending on the purity).
If he decides to become Superlium Steel, a nearly unbreakable alloy of +20 hardness... Unfortunately, the power maxes out at 10, so he's stuck as a somewhat flawed imitation. Wood? Rank 5. This at least provides some sense of balance, while giving characters the opportunity to be like Knockoff (And let's face it, we ALL want to be like Knockoff.).

THe other Forms are a bit tricky, but I've not had a serious problem with one type per form on the others.

Boomshakalaka: I have Alternate Form: Explosion. I want to grapple her and take her down with a Nuclear Blast. Oh, wait. It's Inferna. Can I do a water balloon thing instead?
GM: I hate you.

Just some food for thought.
Any other ideas?
User avatar
Ether
Dabbler
Dabbler
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 1:52 pm

Postby mgg » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:13 am

I think that's more than a house rule, I think that is just the way alternate form solid works as it is written in the book.
mgg
Devotee
Devotee
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:22 pm

Postby Ether » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:27 am

I'd make Kryptonite about as hard as a rock. And it would be off limits to anyone who's never seen it before.

And superman would escape to retrieve his lead suit. And the S-man would take his left fist... and he would take his right fist... and he would lay into Mr. (or Mrs.) Kryptonite with a fury that would make all the children in the streets of Metropolis weep in confusion and terror. And when it is all over, and all the camera crews are watching, and little Lois Lane, shrieking shock and horror, pulls the S-Man back, pleading on behalf of Mr. (or Mrs.) Kryptonite, all the world shall know that you DO NOT USE ALTERNATE FORM: SOLID TO BECOME KRYPTONITE!

To do so in the future, even against an evil Superman clone, would require Mr. (or Mrs.) Kryptonite to succeed at a DC 30 Will Save. Forever more, the character has Weakness: Susceptible (The Letter "S"), as the natural order is restored.
User avatar
Ether
Dabbler
Dabbler
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 1:52 pm

Postby Ether » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:33 am

I think that's more than a house rule, I think that is just the way alternate form solid works as it is written in the book.


My Kung Fu is strong!
:D

Even if... my... rules... comprehension is... not.
:oops:
User avatar
Ether
Dabbler
Dabbler
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 1:52 pm

Postby horned god » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:06 pm

I think this is an interpretation issue. I think we are confusing the term 'all' and 'any'. After re-reading it again and taking into account that all npc's in this game printed so far which have Alt form do in fact have a single type and even Knock Off does not state he can turn into 'all' forms merely that he has six forms: energy, solid, sem-solid, gasesous, explosive, shadow.

Explosive and Shadow are not a problem. It is the first three that are. It does not state in fact he can turn into all energy types merely that he has the Alt Form power and that of it he has at least 'a' energy, 'a' solid, 'a' gaseous form.

If you look in the Alt form power it simply says you assume a given form and does not blatantly state you get 'all types' of that given form. Meaning you don't get fire, cold, electricity, etc. if you pick Energy form alt. Merely that you get the player choice of picking a single type and thus may pick among 'any' of that Form and thus end up with a given Alternative Form, a single type of that Form you chose as a player.

Let me define what I meant more by the word 'poorly written'. I simply mean it is open to interpretation and just like loopholes in the law rules-lawyer players might interpret 'any' as meaning 'all'. No I am not saying all players might do this only that it could happen and if so could become an issue and that means the power description failed to lead to such a key ambiguity.

So I read Knock Off not as saying he can turn into any form, but instead merely that he has a single type of each of the forms listed and thus at best five or six alternative forms, not all materials known to humankind.

Also it should be mentioned that Absorbing Man is not knock off. Assuming Alt Form is NOT absorbing the properties of a substance but instead is like Sandman where you can assume a given form. How do I know this? Well if you had Alt form Solid even with the Touch Flaw, could you still turn into gold if no gold were present in an empty room. Answer: Yes you could as your power lets you assume gold. Assuming you had Solid (Gold) form.

Absorbing man on the other hand must touch Gold to turn into it or should I say to assume the properties of Gold, if no gold is present he can't turn into it. So that it works more like Absorption than Alt form but functionally you could give him the Alt form power with the touch flaw but you'd additionally have to give him Restricted flaw too so that if the substance were not present you don't get the choice of that form. Therefore if you were in my living room and there is a leather couch you can turn into leather if you wanted and if you had solid form and had bought multiple types of solid or interpreted the power to say 'any' means 'all' which I don't think it does.
horned god
Groupie
Groupie
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 11:59 pm

Postby mouthymerc » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:10 pm

slaughterj wrote:Well, let's take Alt-Form energy for example, then you'd let the person turn into any type of energy? Seems to me the result would be to enable the character to turn into fire to battle the cold/ice guy, turn into light to fight the darkness guy, etc., thus being better able to exploit potential flaws and weaknesses. That's why you get only 1 form, not all.

Though less obvious for Alt-Form Solid, you get the same potential issues - "hey, there's Superman, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Kryptonite!" or "hey, there's Werewolf, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Silver!".


Unless the villains I put up against the Alt-Form Energy character all have weaknesses that can be exploited this way, I don't see this as a problem. I'm not going to sic Alt-Form Cold energy guy this week and then Alt-Form Darkness energy next week. Up against a brick it doesn't matter which type of energy form you have. Mechanically speaking, they will all do same thing. Sorry, but I don't see this being so unbalancing as to throw the game off.

horned god wrote:Also it should be mentioned that Absorbing Man is not knock off. Assuming Alt Form is NOT absorbing the properties of a substance but instead is like Sandman where you can assume a given form. How do I know this? Well if you had Alt form Solid even with the Touch Flaw, could you still turn into gold if no gold were present in an empty room. Answer: Yes you could as your power lets you assume gold. Assuming you had Solid (Gold) form.

Absorbing man on the other hand must touch Gold to turn into it or should I say to assume the properties of Gold, if no gold is present he can't turn into it. So that it works more like Absorption than Alt form but functionally you could give him the Alt form power with the touch flaw but you'd additionally have to give him Restricted flaw too so that if the substance were not present you don't get the choice of that form. Therefore if you were in my living room and there is a leather couch you can turn into leather if you wanted and if you had solid form and had bought multiple types of solid or interpreted the power to say 'any' means 'all' which I don't think it does.


Under Alternate Form it says this:

FLAW
* Touch: You must touch an object or energy with the properties of your alternate form in order to assume it. For example, to turn into steel (a solid form) you must first touch something made of steel.

Now, from this I would gather that your Alt-Form Gold guy could not take his gold form without touching gold. Does this not read like that? Or am I missing something?
The merc with the mouth! Zealot!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein
User avatar
mouthymerc
Super Poster
Super Poster
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby slaughterj » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:56 am

mouthymerc wrote:
slaughterj wrote:Well, let's take Alt-Form energy for example, then you'd let the person turn into any type of energy? Seems to me the result would be to enable the character to turn into fire to battle the cold/ice guy, turn into light to fight the darkness guy, etc., thus being better able to exploit potential flaws and weaknesses. That's why you get only 1 form, not all.

Though less obvious for Alt-Form Solid, you get the same potential issues - "hey, there's Superman, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Kryptonite!" or "hey, there's Werewolf, I'll assume Alt-Form: Solid - Silver!".


Unless the villains I put up against the Alt-Form Energy character all have weaknesses that can be exploited this way, I don't see this as a problem. I'm not going to sic Alt-Form Cold energy guy this week and then Alt-Form Darkness energy next week. Up against a brick it doesn't matter which type of energy form you have. Mechanically speaking, they will all do same thing. Sorry, but I don't see this being so unbalancing as to throw the game off.


Lots of characters have flaws and weaknesses, and by allowing Alt-Form: Solid or Alt-Form: Energy to let people take on any form allows for the opportunity to exploit those weaknesses for free.
slaughterj
Seasoned Veteran
Seasoned Veteran
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:42 am

Postby mouthymerc » Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:59 am

slaughterj wrote:Lots of characters have flaws and weaknesses, and by allowing Alt-Form: Solid or Alt-Form: Energy to let people take on any form allows for the opportunity to exploit those weaknesses for free.


I guess it just doesn't come up often in my games. When you're a brick with Super-Strength and Protection, it really doesn't matter what type of energy you are composed of as they all are mechanically the same. If your schtick is mental abilities, again it doesn't matter. Any flaws or weaknesses I give to the villains do not all center around them being susceptible to certain types of energies or alt-forms that would allow someone, who has multiple forms of one type, to be able to take advantage of. for the amount of times this would actually come into play, I would not consider it overbalancing.
The merc with the mouth! Zealot!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein
User avatar
mouthymerc
Super Poster
Super Poster
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby slaughterj » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:09 pm

mouthymerc wrote:
slaughterj wrote:Lots of characters have flaws and weaknesses, and by allowing Alt-Form: Solid or Alt-Form: Energy to let people take on any form allows for the opportunity to exploit those weaknesses for free.


I guess it just doesn't come up often in my games. When you're a brick with Super-Strength and Protection, it really doesn't matter what type of energy you are composed of as they all are mechanically the same. If your schtick is mental abilities, again it doesn't matter. Any flaws or weaknesses I give to the villains do not all center around them being susceptible to certain types of energies or alt-forms that would allow someone, who has multiple forms of one type, to be able to take advantage of. for the amount of times this would actually come into play, I would not consider it overbalancing.


Sure, it will vary from campaign to campaign, and sure, some characters will not have any exploitable weaknesses, but you can bet if someone had Alt-Form: Energy (any and all types), that they'd transform into whatever was apparently most useful against whatever threat was confronted, e.g., "form of fire to battle ice dude" or "form of electricity to battle metal dude" etc. etc. - it doesn't have to come up much, but clearly most every 4-color campaign will have a range of threats, including ice powered dudes, metal dudes, etc., some of which if properly designed likely will have appropriate flaws and weaknesses. In the campaign I'm currently playing, I'm playing a fire dude, and I full expect that anyone with a variable effect power (e.g., if they could Alt-Form: Any & All Energy) would certainly elect one that is the antithesis of fire, and consequently benefit from my character's flaw(s).
slaughterj
Seasoned Veteran
Seasoned Veteran
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:42 am

Postby mouthymerc » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:54 pm

slaughterj wrote:Sure, it will vary from campaign to campaign, and sure, some characters will not have any exploitable weaknesses, but you can bet if someone had Alt-Form: Energy (any and all types), that they'd transform into whatever was apparently most useful against whatever threat was confronted, e.g., "form of fire to battle ice dude" or "form of electricity to battle metal dude" etc. etc. - it doesn't have to come up much, but clearly most every 4-color campaign will have a range of threats, including ice powered dudes, metal dudes, etc., some of which if properly designed likely will have appropriate flaws and weaknesses. In the campaign I'm currently playing, I'm playing a fire dude, and I full expect that anyone with a variable effect power (e.g., if they could Alt-Form: Any & All Energy) would certainly elect one that is the antithesis of fire, and consequently benefit from my character's flaw(s).


Like I said. It hasn't come up as problem with me. But, then, not all of my villains have exploitable weaknesses. In fact, very few have any actual weaknesses. Same with the heroes in my game. If I had my group do battle with "ice dude", unless I specifically gave him the weakness Vulnerable-Fire, let's say, he really isn't going to care if he is attacked by "fire dude" or "radiation dude". At least, mechanically speaking.

Sounds to me that this would be a bigger problem in your game. If that's the case then limit it to one form and leave it at that. Personally, I would allow it if the player was designing a character with a good concept. For 2 points the character can have access to a whole new alt-form. I'm not going to feel too bad for not charging for access to different types of energy within the same form. But, that's just me. Do what works for your game.
The merc with the mouth! Zealot!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein
User avatar
mouthymerc
Super Poster
Super Poster
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby slaughterj » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:05 am

mouthymerc wrote:
slaughterj wrote:Sure, it will vary from campaign to campaign, and sure, some characters will not have any exploitable weaknesses, but you can bet if someone had Alt-Form: Energy (any and all types), that they'd transform into whatever was apparently most useful against whatever threat was confronted, e.g., "form of fire to battle ice dude" or "form of electricity to battle metal dude" etc. etc. - it doesn't have to come up much, but clearly most every 4-color campaign will have a range of threats, including ice powered dudes, metal dudes, etc., some of which if properly designed likely will have appropriate flaws and weaknesses. In the campaign I'm currently playing, I'm playing a fire dude, and I full expect that anyone with a variable effect power (e.g., if they could Alt-Form: Any & All Energy) would certainly elect one that is the antithesis of fire, and consequently benefit from my character's flaw(s).


Like I said. It hasn't come up as problem with me. But, then, not all of my villains have exploitable weaknesses. In fact, very few have any actual weaknesses. Same with the heroes in my game. If I had my group do battle with "ice dude", unless I specifically gave him the weakness Vulnerable-Fire, let's say, he really isn't going to care if he is attacked by "fire dude" or "radiation dude". At least, mechanically speaking.

Sounds to me that this would be a bigger problem in your game. If that's the case then limit it to one form and leave it at that. Personally, I would allow it if the player was designing a character with a good concept. For 2 points the character can have access to a whole new alt-form. I'm not going to feel too bad for not charging for access to different types of energy within the same form. But, that's just me. Do what works for your game.


Not a particular problem in my games either, but Weaknesses are rare. However, when I make certain characters, I try to design at least appropriate partial flaws, else characters are plain vanilla, e.g., giving ice dude a partial flaw of "No DEF v. Fire" on his Ice Protection.
slaughterj
Seasoned Veteran
Seasoned Veteran
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:42 am


Return to Mutants & Masterminds Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 0 guests