Errata questions - post em here

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Postby Crocostimpy » Tue May 27, 2003 1:38 pm

Just to be sure, according to the errata and other bits I've gathered:

Force Field is now 2pp/rank but comes with a free Extra, right? Can you take it without the free Extra to reduce it to 1pp/rank?

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Re: ?

Postby Lord Ichor » Tue May 27, 2003 5:12 pm

Ogrelord wrote:If I want to buy a power that has secondary effects, and I want different extras and flaws for each secondary effect, how do I go about it?

Here's an example of an instance where this question will frequently arise:
http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3929


You do it by placing restrictions (ie the Flaw: Restricted) on the powers effects IMO. This is a rule of thumb but should work in a number of cases.

Not all just some. 8)
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Postby arcady » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:36 pm

Is the cost of Alternate Form: Energy off?

Going over this power again...

For 5pp/r you get:

Incorporeal
Flight
1 immunity feat per rank
Energy Field -OR- Energy Blast
Ghost touch

5 effects.

Shouldn't it be 6pp/r?
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Postby voordax » Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:44 pm

arcady wrote:Incorporeal
Flight
1 immunity feat per rank
Energy Field -OR- Energy Blast
Ghost touch
I don't see Ghost Touch anywhere in the power. You still have to buy this as an extra just like you would with normal Incorporeal. So, when in "desolid" form, your Energy Field or EB are ineffective.
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Postby mgg » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:34 pm

I disagree. Reading the power I get the idea that if you turn to fire form you can burn people. It technically doesn't mention ghost touch, but I think it is intended to be there for the one attack power that is included in the form.
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Postby mgg » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:45 pm

Is this the place to report typos and other errors? I think I found one or two minor ones that aren't in the errata.
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Help me!

Postby Tallyrand » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:53 am

I'm statting out characters for my PL5 game, and I have a couple questions.

1) One player wants to play a super powered televangelist. He wants to be able to heal and stun in the same open handed strike (Hmmm, should we add the obvious flaw as he shouts "HEAL!!!!"?) As these effects are different but inseperable, is one a flaw or an extra of the other?

2) Another wants to play a old style Ghostrider clone. Instead of statting up a bike, I'm giving him Running with the feats Super Running, and Watter and Wall run from Super Speed, all with the device flaw. This is to reflect the unnatural control over simple driving that the bike would have. Any other suggestions?


And yes, I realizt that these two characters are going to get along like gangbusters!

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more errata

Postby horned god » Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:29 pm

Found an errata: on p. 87 first paragraph under Shockwave, it says 'just like a trip attack (see p. 135). Look on page 135, nothing about Trip attack. Look up in the Index and low and behold Trip attack is on p. 142. Hence add this to the errata. I simply did a font 10 '142' printed, cut, taped it into there. Still it should be added eventually especially to a correctly edited copy.

By the way I would like to buy a fully edited copy. Any Second Printings with all added errata scheduled by the end of the summer? Unrealistic? Spiral bound copy?
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Drain vs. Absorb

Postby ForeverRaven » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:51 am

I was recently playing Mutants and Masterminds with some friends and my character has the Absorb power. My character is basically the tank of the group so he has it at rank 10.

So our GM creates this alien race that does drain and he comes up and drains the powers of our bruiser and then he runs over to me. Then he hits me and all of my powers are drained...and I sit there confused.

How does this work? I looked in the main book, but I didn't find anything saying one way or the other. Would drain actually be able to take away my absorb power, or would absorb block that? Is it a matter of power rank vs power rank? How would this actually work?
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Postby horned god » Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:51 am

I didn't see where force field was 2pp per rank. Still I have it written as 1 pp per rank and then as Force Attacks as an extra and in that you pick one of the three forms, then the option to pick the other two as stunts. Say I get force field at 10 rank, thus 10pp, and then spend 10 pp on force attacks and pick say the energy blast option, that is 20pp. OR I can pay 2pp per rank for force field and get one extra for free, hence 20pp at 10 rank. Mmmm sounds the same to me. Especially if you can simply take a flaw: restricted to nix the 'free' energy blast. I like the way it is in the book right now, and thus consider the errata not really needed.
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Postby horned god » Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:51 am

I didn't see where force field was 2pp per rank. Still I have it written as 1 pp per rank and then as Force Attacks as an extra and in that you pick one of the three forms, then the option to pick the other two as stunts. Say I get force field at 10 rank, thus 10pp, and then spend 10 pp on force attacks and pick say the energy blast option, that is 20pp. OR I can pay 2pp per rank for force field and get one extra for free, hence 20pp at 10 rank. Mmmm sounds the same to me. Especially if you can simply take a flaw: restricted to nix the 'free' energy blast. I like the way it is in the book right now, and thus consider the errata where force field is concerned not really needed. I like it how it is right now.
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Postby faenril » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:25 am

Erik Mona wrote:Force Field is supposed to be 2 points per rank, not 1. I accidentally left it off the errata. We'll get it in there soon.


Force Field is 2 PP/Rank ok, but does it include the free enhancement indicated in the errata ?

Does Force Field taken as an extra of another power like Energy Control has also a free enhancement ?
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Postby arcady » Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:53 pm

This gets asked so often I wanted to put it somewhere sticky:

Steve Kenson wrote:Power Stunts and Secondary Effects

* The power must already have a primary effect of the same type in order to add a secondary effect of that type.

* Secondary effects can’t be used or sustained at the same time as the primary effect. If the secondary effect needs to work in conjunction with the primary effect, it can't be a secondary effect. For example, if a character makes Immovability a secondary effect of Amazing Save (Damage), the character can benefit from either Amazing Save (Damage) or Immovability, but not both at once. To have the powers working at the same time, the character must add the new effect as an extra and increase the power's cost per rank.

* The secondary effect cannot have a power point cost greater than the primary effect. If the GM allows, the secondary effect may have a lower rank than the primary effect, in order to accommodate extras that increase its cost. For example, a primary effect at rank 10 costs 2 pp/rank, a total of 20 pp. A secondary effect with an extra costs 3 pp/rank, a total of 30 pp for 10 ranks, too much for a secondary effect for that primary effect. However, if the rank of the secondary effect is lowered to 6, that makes its total 18 pp, less than the primary effect, and therefore suitable. If the secondary effect had two extras, and a cost of 4 pp/rank, its rank would need to be lowered to 5, for a total cost of 20 pp.

You can generally assume that power stunts listed for the "batch" powers, as you call them, are considered secondary effects.

How does this apply to various powers?

Cosmic Power: All of the listed power stunts are secondary effects.

Element Control: All of the listed power stunts are secondary effects.

Energy Control: All of the listed powers stunts are secondary effects.

Sorcery: Each spell group is considered the base effect when determining the value of power stunts, not the entire cost of the Sorcery power. So if you want to add a spell (power stunt) to the Defensive Group, for example, it must have a cost of 2 or less per rank, just like the other powers in that group, or a reduced rank. In cases where spell group and effect category don't match up exactly, use spell group. It's up to the GM to decide which spell group a new power fits into.

You can create an extra, call it "Expanded Spells" that allows you to apply one extra to each of the spells in that Spell Group, expanding the group's cost to 3 pp.

Healing, Mental Blast, and Possession are somewhat special cases, since they are 3 pp powers (their cost was raised in the final draft and the changes weren't reflected in Sorcery). You have two options here, either consider them 2 pp powers for the purposes of Sorcery (because they are fairly common powers for sorcerers) or require them to have a lower rank than the Sorcery power, as given above.

Super-Speed: The Spinning power stunt substitutes for the initiative and dodge bonus provided by Super-Speed, granting a bonus to save against damage and snare attacks instead. The Tunneling stunt for Spinning isn't exactly a secondary effect, but it was considered a minor enough benefit to be a stunt rather than an extra.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion.


Original source:
http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 2322#26465
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Postby arcady » Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:58 pm

voordax wrote:
arcady wrote:Incorporeal
Flight
1 immunity feat per rank
Energy Field -OR- Energy Blast
Ghost touch
I don't see Ghost Touch anywhere in the power. You still have to buy this as an extra just like you would with normal Incorporeal. So, when in "desolid" form, your Energy Field or EB are ineffective.
See the FAQ. :P
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Postby voordax » Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:41 pm

arcady wrote:See the FAQ. :P
Ahh! So there it is! So focused on Errata I've only referenced the FAQ a couple times. Merci!!!
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Postby arcady » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:07 pm

I've gotten tired of remaking my characters over and over for things I missed. So now everytime I do anything I always check both of those... :P
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Postby Quantum » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:48 pm

My players want to create new powers but they want it to be a free action and sustained. Since no base power template for action and duration is given, what would it be?

Also, why is it that HQ is a feat while a vehicle has to be paid for with points? With the right extras and flaws, I can make a create automobile power for less. Shouldn't this be a feat since HQ, sidekicks, and minions (even contructs) are paid for as feats?

I love the idea of M&M but it seems broken.
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Postby arcady » Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:07 pm

Yes vehicle ought to be cheaper...

But MnM at present sees it as a device rather than a resource. Thus the cost structure.

If you make it a feat, what's the prevent a mecha suit vehicle for a powered armor character who thus gets all their powers for only two points.
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Postby Tallyrand » Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:06 am

someone had previously posted some houserules for a vehicle feat, i think that if they are used the GM must enforce that the vehicle acquired is used as just that, a vehicle, not as a powers platform, that is why a mecha battlesuit would be disalowed, however the batmobile would be fine, it's fast, well armored, has some offensive capability, and prevents Batman from using about 80% of his skills and capabilities while inside. things like avenger quinjets, and the fantastic four flying dufus mobile work well for this as a feat. Super Mega Battle Armor Zero should be bought with power points.

Besides if you want to really go that route, you can buy a sidekick that just happens to be a vehicle (aka Knightrider) or a sidekick that owns a vehicle (like that Frenchie guy that hauled Moon Knight's but around all those years)

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Impervious vs. Penetrating Attack

Postby Monumental » Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:01 pm

Quick question about Impervious and Damage Save, for a PL 15 Brick. The character in question has a 20 Constitution, giving him a +5 to damage save, a Superstrength (With Protection) of 15, giving him a 15 Protection, and a Super-Constitution (With Impervious) of 10.

Now, Penetrating Attack obviously works on all three of these, should someone invest sufficient points into multiple Penetrating Attack Feats. How much does the Super-Constitution's Impervious protect? Just the Super-Constitution's Damage Save Bonus? Super-Constitution and Constitution together? Or, as it is Impervious, does it apply to all instances of Damage Save, including Protection, and if I had it, Amazing Save (Damage)?

Thank you for your time.
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Question about Animation

Postby Moleculon » Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:46 am

Hi there, this is my first posting...
One (more three) question to the Animation power: under the Animation Extras there are three Extras which raise some questions:
1. Animate Liquids: What hardness do Liquids have, if Ice has 0 (M&M p.139)? If ALL Liquids have hardness 0, then this Extra is REALLY powerful, because the animated Creatures have the Alternate Form (Liquid) Power at your power rank in Animation (=Elasticity, Swimming and Protection) and in addition, because you haven´t spend a point on hardness yet, you could animate a Colossal (or even bigger creature) and still have points to spend...
2. Animate Gasses: the same holds true to Gasses (=Incorporeal, Flight and Suffocate) + plenty of points to spent to boost the animated creature
3. Animate Shadows: states: "They have a Strength bonus and Damage bonus equal to your power rank." I think the Damage bonus should read "Damage save bonus" or what is their hardness?
Furthermore is the (base) attack bonus the animated creatures have equal to their strength bonus, or do you have to buy this separately?

One question to the Incorporeal power:
what, exactly, are physical effects? Would an energy blast from a person with Energy Blast (Electricity) pass through the incorporeal character? What about Energy Blast (Fire), wouldn´t the heat damage the incorporeal character (assuming he isn´t immune)? Then again what AREN´T physical damaging effects (I think in the book are only 3: other incorporeal characters, Mental Blast and Illusion with the Damaging Extra?

Looking forward to your replies.
many thanks
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Postby horned god » Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:37 pm

I had that same thought about the incorporeal and physical attacks and I read that you must be vundrible to one type of attack which means one type of energy. So you could say the incorporeal person is immune to all the listed energy types BUT then I saw the listed Immunity extra and ofcourse that means you can buy Immunity (insert one type of energy) in there for each rank you bought in Incorporeal. Therefore you could have rank 5 incorporeal and Immunity extra the immunities could be for example: suffocation, exhaustion, cold, fire, sonic.

I would then interpret that physical attacks are 'corporeal' matter based attacks like a melee weapon or unarmed attack. An energy attack is corporeal in our conception and yet only if you get the Immunity extra would your incorporeal person be immune potentially otherwise they aren't incorporeal to energy as well as matter. That is the snap. How to define corporeal. I say it is both energy and matter and thus by 'matter' you mean physical attacks and by energy you mean all those types of energies and by buying immunity extra you are extending your incorporeal to include incorporeality to those types also.

I had a problem like this when reading 'eldritch magic attack' or simply when it lists 'vundrible to magic' in various comic characters. I asked 'what the heck is a magic attack'. As if you look under sorcery you simpmly are buying energy blast and then a specific type of energy. Therefore if you are invundrible to fire and some wizard cast fireball on you, won't you be invundrible to it. I then noticed that most or all superhero types who are vundrible to magic are also vundrible to mental effects too. Like the hulk and superman who share apparently this same vundriblity. I thought for each instance of the word 'eldritch' you see in marvel simply replace with the word 'mental blast' and thus that meant a Will based attack as there are only three types in this game: damage, fortitude, and will.

You could interpret it as fortitude, in that the eldritch or 'magic bolt' drains your bio-energy or something if you wanted to yet, that fortitude stems from some type of super-constitution or amazing save fortitude more than likely which most heros like the hulk and superman have. Yet, functionally if you simply give superman something like a +5 or +6 Will save and all wizards can cast Energy Blast (Fire) at them and they would more than likely sluff it off but say the same Dr. Strange blast superman with an Eldritch bolt then by making a mental Blast suddently big bad superman would be taking a +15 rank Mental Blast and low and below probably take a hit.

Also water, liquid, shadow and images would have a hardness of 0, as they cannot break, instead they dissipate. If you grant them a hardness of 1+ then the rules for breaking apply, and you can't break my shadow, I know I tried, it's still there whenever I turn on the light. If water had hardness then it sure would hurt going down my throat, come to think of it, I have heard someone say 'is that hard or soft water'? Don't think I still understand what they mean by hard and soft water.
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Thanks for your thoughts on the subject...

Postby Moleculon » Sat Jul 12, 2003 4:21 am

I see your point regarding the hardness of liquids, gasses and shadows, however, taking gasses for example, a "starting hero" with Animation 10 and Extra Gasses could animate a hell of a cloud: Awesome Size (spending 5 of your 10 Animation ranks, because you don´t have to spend any on hardness, so giving it a face of appr. 80 x 80 ft and a height of over 130 ft with a reach of 25 ft., so it could suffocate (by engulfing) a small skyscraper), Incorporeal 10 (making it almost invincible), Flight 10, Suffocate 10, and you still have 5 points to spend on Attack or Defence bonus, Dexterity...

Animate Liquids is even worse: Awesome Size, Elasticity 10 (giving it a melee reach of 25 ft (size) + 50 ft (Elesticity) = 75 ft !, Swimming 10, Protection 10, and 5 points still to spend on attack etc., this is a tidal wave that could flatten New York! (Who needs Element Control (Water), on the same rank you could move only about 50 tons of Water, this "Wave Elemental" above weights about 25000 tons (if I am not mistaken)!)
So much for all coastal cities if there is one super-villain with the animation power...

think about this
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Re: Question about Animation

Postby mgg » Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:31 pm

Moleculon wrote:Hi there, this is my first posting...
One (more three) question to the Animation power: under the Animation Extras there are three Extras which raise some questions:
1. Animate Liquids: What hardness do Liquids have, if Ice has 0 (M&M p.139)? If ALL Liquids have hardness 0, then this Extra is REALLY powerful, because the animated Creatures have the Alternate Form (Liquid) Power at your power rank in Animation (=Elasticity, Swimming and Protection) and in addition, because you haven´t spend a point on hardness yet, you could animate a Colossal (or even bigger creature) and still have points to spend...
2. Animate Gasses: the same holds true to Gasses (=Incorporeal, Flight and Suffocate) + plenty of points to spent to boost the animated creature


The way I read it, each version of animation has its own rules. Animate liquid and animate gas uses the alternate form power only. You don't get hardness and size, etc. Just the liquid form or gas form. There is no 'in addtion because you haven't spent a point on hardness yet...'. The alternate form power substitutes for the hardness/size.

Moleculon wrote:3. Animate Shadows: states: "They have a Strength bonus and Damage bonus equal to your power rank." I think the Damage bonus should read "Damage save bonus" or what is their hardness?
Furthermore is the (base) attack bonus the animated creatures have equal to their strength bonus, or do you have to buy this separately?


Yeah, figure animate shadows is a typo.

This is how I read shadows: They don't have hardness, instead they get a damage save bonus like living minions. I think the base attack bonus is equal to their full strength bonus, and is not required to be purchased separately.
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Postby Moleculon » Sun Jul 13, 2003 10:40 pm

mgg wrote:
The way I read it, each version of animation has its own rules. Animate liquid and animate gas uses the alternate form power only. You don't get hardness and size, etc. Just the liquid form or gas form. There is no 'in addtion because you haven't spent a point on hardness yet...'. The alternate form power substitutes for the hardness/size.


If this is so, then what size do the creatures have you can animate with animate gasses/liquids? You need this information to calculate reach, defence etc. And you have to somehow limit the amount of material you could animate or else the super-hero/villain could animate ALL material in range (and the range is normal!). The size category is normaly the way of doing this. Weight doesn´t work (air doesn´t weight much), so with animate gasses you could animate ALL air in normal range, suffocating everybody...
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