Errata questions - post em here

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Errata questions - post em here

Postby Mucknuggle » Wed Mar 05, 2003 3:07 pm

First, for Force Field, it says to add
"Choose one of the follwing extras as a free power enhancement."

:o

Force Field AND AN EXTRA FOR 1 PP?! :o

Or am I reading it wrong?
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Postby MagusRogue » Wed Mar 05, 2003 3:09 pm

my question is: Where's the revised Archetypes and Villians?

Oh, and anyone clarified Dr Metropolis having a higher-costing extra without reducing ranks of having a hgiher cost? (talkin bout his Transmutation ability under City Control)
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Postby Nikchick » Wed Mar 05, 2003 3:21 pm

I'm going to sticky this so it can stay near the top for now.

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Postby Mucknuggle » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:02 pm

Nice! Hopefully answers to the questions will come as soon as the sticky did. Thx again!

Another question.

Errate to the improvised weapons states that the damage dealt is double the hardness of the object or your super strength rank, which ever is less. Why was this done? It doesn't make sense to me. If you're strong enough to break a bamboo stick over someone's head, it won't hurt less if you hit them with the stick than if you were to punch them.
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Postby The Fifth Wanderer » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:13 pm

Mucknuggle wrote:First, for Force Field, it says to add
"Choose one of the follwing extras as a free power enhancement."



Force Field AND AN EXTRA FOR 1 PP?!

Or am I reading it wrong?


Let's look under the mask for a moment:

Force Field is a defense effect power.

Defense effect powers normally don't need an action to use and a duration of continuous. (p. 93)

Force Field needs a free action to use and has a duration of sustained.

So, doing the math...

1 +1(defense effect) -1 (slow, taking it from no action to free action) -1 (duration, goes to sustained from continuous) = 0 PP/level.

Whee! We can all have Force Field at our PL for free.

But all powers have to cost a minimum of 1 pp/level. So they threw in the free extra to make it come out right.
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Postby MagusRogue » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:22 pm

Mucknuggle wrote:Nice! Hopefully answers to the questions will come as soon as the sticky did. Thx again!

Another question.

Errate to the improvised weapons states that the damage dealt is double the hardness of the object or your super strength rank, which ever is less. Why was this done? It doesn't make sense to me. If you're strong enough to break a bamboo stick over someone's head, it won't hurt less if you hit them with the stick than if you were to punch them.


guessin cuz you can't swing it hard enough to get full damage from it.
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Postby Mucknuggle » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:28 pm

Ahhh. Good job Wanderer, thx!
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Postby MagusRogue » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:30 pm

The Fifth Wanderer wrote:
Mucknuggle wrote:First, for Force Field, it says to add <snip>


I like.... makes Force Field not as powerful, now that you look at it that way.
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Postby coyote6 » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:41 pm

So does that mean that guys that take Force Field as an extra on another power (Telekinesis, for example) should get another extra for free? :o

My question: Energy Control (Electricity) had its base effect changed. Why? And how does this new one work? It sounds like an Energy Blast with a limitation (Touch or Through Conductor Only, which seems like a Flawed power) -- is that what it is? If so, if you want to go Lightning Lad, and blast people with electricity, do you have to buy Energy Blast as an extra? It would seem like you're paying for the same thing twice.

Lastly and anti-leastly: Thanks to the Green Ronin folks, the Super Unicorn people, & Steve Kenson for putting these documents together.
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Postby MagusRogue » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:16 pm

coyote6 wrote:My question: Energy Control (Electricity) had its base effect changed. Why? And how does this new one work? It sounds like an Energy Blast with a limitation (Touch or Through Conductor Only, which seems like a Flawed power) -- is that what it is? If so, if you want to go Lightning Lad, and blast people with electricity, do you have to buy Energy Blast as an extra? It would seem like you're paying for the same thing twice.


because they went with people complaining that about half of the Energy Controls were just Energy Blasts. And, according to the way they worded it, it seems you can actualy contuct ambient electricity through you so, say, it won't reach someone else, along with generating it yourself. Basically, you can become either a walking battery, or a lightning rod. I think. correct me if i misread it.
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Postby Aleph » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:26 pm

Shapeshift - okay, they solved Growth. Are they going to say anything about elongation?
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Postby Box » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:13 am

Still wondering whether Leaping should be 1pp or 2pp (power entry differs from Power cost summary table).
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Postby coyote6 » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:38 am

Box wrote:Still wondering whether Leaping should be 1pp or 2pp (power entry differs from Power cost summary table).


I'd say 1 pp; the ability to fly is 2 pp, and much more useful than jumping around.
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Postby Erik Mona » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:24 pm

Force Field is supposed to be 2 points per rank, not 1. I accidentally left it off the errata. We'll get it in there soon.

Leaping should be 1 pp. I had a note to change the cost in my internal errata (which consists of minor layout changes that don't effect game play). For some reason, it missed the main errata, too. We'll get them in there lickety split.

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Postby Aleph » Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:05 pm

More for the next FAQ, not errata - let me know if this is the wrong place:

1) Do power stunts included in the power descriptions automatically trigger the "exclusive" clause of the secondary effect rule, or does that only apply to power stunts you have to "reason" to? Here I'm thinking especially of sorcery?

2) Many (Validier et al) have said point-blank that a power stunt cannot be worth more points than the power it is a stunt of. Example - if you bought mental blast off energy blast 10+, your mental blast would be only 6+, since you only have 20 effective points to buy MB with. I find this nowhere in the book. Is it official errata?

3) Likewise, an official word on buying extras on power stunts would be helpful. Example: If you have telepathy as a Sorcery power stunt and want to buy the group mind extra for it, what is your cost? What if you both flaw the power stunt and extra it (Telepathy, Group Mind, and Slow)?
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Postby Valdier » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:08 pm

Aleph wrote:2) Many (Validier et al) have said point-blank that a power stunt cannot be worth more points than the power it is a stunt of. Example - if you bought mental blast off energy blast 10+, your mental blast would be only 6+, since you only have 20 effective points to buy MB with. I find this nowhere in the book. Is it official errata?

3) Likewise, an official word on buying extras on power stunts would be helpful. Example: If you have telepathy as a Sorcery power stunt and want to buy the group mind extra for it, what is your cost? What if you both flaw the power stunt and extra it (Telepathy, Group Mind, and Slow)?


Couple of answers for the immediate that I could find official answers on:

#2. In this thread SK confirms that this is how it works:
Extras and Stunts - their costs

For #3, with #2 being true, you would have one of two choices... either lower the telepathy power level on purchase to make its cost with the extra less than that of the base cost, or... pay the full price for telepathy making it an extra instead of a stunt to get it at full sorcery power level. (If you added a flaw it would reduce the cost so you could stunt it at full power)
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Postby Mucknuggle » Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:33 am

Force Field costs 2 pp per rank, how did you get that cost?
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Postby Aleph » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:38 am

Edited Numerous times for clarity... still isn't clear

Valdier - I wasn't actually looking for a forum response, but for inclusion in the next FAQ. That said, if we're going to deal with it here let's deal with it in all its ugly glory -

The precise reason to look at Sorcery and Cosmic here is that they are batch powers, not a bunch of powers bought as extras to a base power. While you can argue that in fact the power stunts are being bought on particular powers/effects in the mix, this is not confirmed in the power descriptions. While you can trace the "back-end" mechanics of the power stunts to secondary effect, as it stands the stunts are on sorcery itself, not powers within Sorcery. Whatever you choose, you have dramatic implications for the game system.

1) Exclusivity - All your base powers under a batch power can clearly be up at one time, since they aren't stunts. What else can we say with surety? Exclusive within category of effect is a clear extrapolation from p 95, but what do we make of power stunts which are not based on an effect in the power? (Spinning + Tunnelling) For Sorcery, categories of effect are not the same as Sorcery Spell Groups, as is reified in the Lady Hex "homebrew Sorcery" example on 95. Yet are spells exclusive within spell group or within category of effect? Or something else?

2) If your Steve confirmed power stunt cost system (henceforth, SCPSC or reasonable facsimile thereof) is true (and I'm not saying it isn't, only that it isn't yet officially in the errata and thus subject to change - though a version exists under the Gadgets rewrite), we also have a "batch power" problem on Sorcery.

--------------
Q: What is the cost of the base power for determining the maximum points allocated to a power stunt?

Options:
a) 7, for the base cost of sorcery. Implication: That gets me telepathy with 5 extras for 2 points. Yay! Bring on the sorcerous munchkins. This theory makes the most sense off the SCPSC system, and is affirmed by the Alternate Form power stunts.
b) Equal to the base cost of my core ability within that spell group. Implication: Everyone should clearly take as their base Possession, Mental Blast or Suffocate, and Healing, to have base 3 powers and be able take power stunts with a single free extra in each of these groups. On the other hand, maintains best the coherence of the "based on powers within the power" system and makes sense with the most logical rule about exclusivity on 95.
c) Power Stunts listed in power descriptions are automatically available for 2 points at level = the power level, regardless of point differential in effect.
d) Considered to be 2 apiece, regardless of base cost of primary spell (i.e. effect) in each spell group. Implication: Again, buy Possession, Mental Blast, and Healing first, or else you have to buy them at lower levels later.
------------

While a) clearly has balance problems out the wazoo, if you pick the logical choice of b) you've just committed to basing power stunts off of the base cost of effects within powers rather than the core powers itself. You then have a logistical nightmare for complex but "non-batch" powers which aren't based off of conglamorations of individual powers - Spinning (primarily defensive at base) is a power stunt off of Super-speed, so which effects of super-speed is spinning the stunt of? If it's the Amazing Save: Reflex (the only official defensive power in there), then you're getting a 2 point/level power based off a 1 point/level effect. There is the additional +1 to dodge per level of Super-Speed, but there aren't any rules in the SCPSC for adding together the net effect of a particular category of power (defense, for example) to determine the total cost available to fuel power stunts (and if there were, that would create an equal problem with powers containing as multiple powers of the same effect group as extras). Lest the exclusivity question be forgot, is Spinning exclusive with Super-Speed? I'm not sure... what effects are involved?

And what about Spinning itself? No movement effect even in there, yet it has tunneling as a power stunt. Tunneling would therefore be at 0, because there is no base movement effect in Spinning (0 base cost for movement effect x whatever = 0). Hmmm... and Tunneling is specifically noted as "while spinning", which should be impossible if included powers bought as power stunts are automatically exclusive. But if exclusivity is only within effect, as stated on 95, you could do both at once because Spinning is a defense power and tunneling is a movement power - but since this also requires that a different power bought as a stunt be the same kind, we need to ask how Tunneling is a power stunt of Spinning in the first place.

For another difficult example - although Energy Control is a control power, its effects often fall outside the control category. For example, Cold essentially creates Slick. If you are arguing for a power stunt from effect, is your Energy Control: Cold a control power, or an attack power?

c) and d) are neat fixes, but they both contradict the SCPSC to a greater or lesser extent and don't help us when we have to figure out the cost of extras on power stunts.

Whoo! I confused myself at points within that, but tried to make it as clear as possible before posting. Hope it worked.
Last edited by Aleph on Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby j » Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:35 am

coyote6 wrote:So does that mean that guys that take Force Field as an extra on another power (Telekinesis, for example) should get another extra for free? :o


Technically they could do that with any 1 point power. For example taking Amazing Save: Damage (extra: Amazin Save Will) as an extra of a power only costs 1/level...


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Postby Tesuji » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:20 pm

Mucknuggle wrote:Force Field costs 2 pp per rank, how did you get that cost?


not official but my bet is...

protection 2pp
flaw sustained -1 pp
add one extra of choice +1 pp

net cost 2 pp.

that was the first thought i has when i saw the "free enhancement"... "why doesn't it cost 2 pp then?"
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Postby Space Librarian » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:27 pm

But Force Field is Protection wth two flaws. The one you mentioned and Slow so that it requires a free action.
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Postby bolen » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:56 pm

How come the last page of the errata is six but there are 5 pages?
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Postby The Fifth Wanderer » Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:06 pm

Page five was deleted for security reasons. Are you questioning the wisdom of the Computer, citizen? :green:
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Postby Tesuji » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:35 pm

Space Librarian wrote:But Force Field is Protection wth two flaws. The one you mentioned and Slow so that it requires a free action.


No, its not.

great try though.

page 60 defines sustained as... "taking only a free action to maintain."

Let me repeat, the DEFINITION of sustained is that the power takes a free action each round to use.

So, unless your Gm is asleep, you cannot also claim points off for "also i took this other flaw for making the power require a free action" whether its called "slow". "harry" or even "just more free points YAY!!!"

if, however, your gm is asleep, you could probably get six or even seven flaws for the same "takes a free action" thingy so why stop at 2?
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Postby Aleph » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:17 pm

Tesuji - try to understand the point they are making before you go off.

Protection and Force Field have the same base effect - reducing damage and eliminating it if it goes below 0.

NOW, protection - action: none, duration: continuous.

How do you make protection into force field? There is a duration flaw (P 97 - duration from continuous to sustained is a flaw), and a slow flaw ( none to free is a flaw, p. 98).

Got it?
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