Ultimate X Men

[RogueWriter]

Wow. I didn't know the Ultimate X-Men had any goals.... I guess I missed it. Or maybe they didn't mention it in the first three issues.

To create Ultimate Angst..... What else could it be...

VD-D I like your idea. Night School

At least he didn't call it Adult School.... Then it might be X-Rated....

To be serious for a moment, the whole point of the Ultimate Universe is to let newer writers and artists the chance to take established characters from the beginning. Of the three titles, unfortunately, I find Ultimate X-Men to be the weakest of the three. I got the feeling that they were trying to shovel every fan-fave plot point into the story as fast as they could. It didn't work for me. Ultimates, and Ultimate Spider-Man have a pace which makes more sense to me.

<Deflectors are at maximum>

RogueWriter

[professorzoom]

Okay.

I love criticism as much as the next guy, but you can't be serious when you say the Ultimate X-Men's primary focus is 'angst'. The primary focus of the Ultimate X-Men title is the goal of Charles Xavier versus the fears of humanity and the occasional mutant uprising.

What's that?

Oh, you're referring to the characters being angst ridden. Specifically, you're referring to the fact that NOW the characters are MORE angst-ridden than when they were originally conceived.

Here's the definition of the word angst, for you folks who think that the focus of these stories is simply angst.

A feeling of anxiety or apprehension often accompanied by depression.

Anxiety or apprehension accompanied by depression. Yes, I would say that the element of angst is definitely apparent, heck, even prevalent throughout the books Marvel publishes. Spider-Man, X-Men, the Hulk...Come on, which Marvel character DOESN'T have some kind of angst in their background?

But the angst is not the focus of these stories. I would say that the angst is definitely a catalyst for drama, but not the focus. Overcoming these feelings of angst, and dealing with the problems facing the characters, is.

Yes the stories Mark Millar writes are extreme. They do depict the struggle of mutantkind versus baseline humanity as a very tense and dangerous situation, which would be the catalyst for a great deal of angst. Millar's writing style is also more mature and adult-oriented than say a Fabian Nicezia or John Byrne, which would lead the stories to have themes relating to the angst of being a mutant.

However, the very IDEA of the X-Men from issue one is an angst-ridden tale. The tale of special people with miraculous powers, and each cursed with being an outcast from a society that 'hates and fears them', and yet protecting them from both mutant and otherworldly threats. That's the origin Lee and Kirby came up with, so you'd think that no matter what, any true iteration of the comics would have that as its core theme.

So, when I read 'The X-Men have become so angst-ridden recently.', I think it's just another criticism borne from simple misunderstanding of the title's focus. Or, perhaps a situation where a person just wants to have something to complain about. No one is wrong for having an opinion. And since I can respect a difference in opinion, I don't think less of someone for saying something like that, because some people just don't 'get it'.

But I will point out that the angst has always been there.

Zoom.

[Scorpio Rising]

FWIW, I can't stand Millar's take on the X-Men. The man is too cynical, and too willing to stoop to new depths to produce a cheap shock. I find his writing tolerable in The Ultimates, possibly because I've never really cared about the Avengers that much, but his take on the X-Men is pretty terrible, IMO. (And I hated what he did with The Authority too, but that's thread rot.) IMHO, the only X-book that has been worth a damn for years is Grant Morrison's neWXMen, which gets the characters dead-on right. People who think that this is all about angst clearly don't know nowt about Morrison's writing and I would cordially suggest that you try picking up "e is for extinction" or one of the other trades out there. They're certainly much better than Ultimate X-Men.

But the point of this game (and this thread) is not to discuss Millar's UXM. It's to discuss how you (or I) would handle the characters and setting if given a similar remit: Make it simpler, ditch all the backstory, all the soap opera tropes and angst, all that junk and boil it down to the bare bones basics so that players can take on a minimal set of facts. I do want to keep the core characters' names, appearances and essences of personalities intact (otherwise why bother using the X-Men at all?), but generally I'll leave the fine details for players to figure out. Consider it one of Marvel's many parallel universes, where characters have different histories and personalities.

So which characters are worth using? Which plots seem fresh or interesting, or could be looked at from a fresh perspective to find something new and intriguing? Someone made a good point that it's impossible to have Archangel on the team without going into his whole background with Apocalypse. It's impossible to have Psylocke without at least bringing Mojo in (technically at least) and it's impossible to have Ninja Psylocke without bringing in The Hand, The Seige Perilous, Roma and The Adversary. So maybe these characters are bad choices. Unless there are interesting takes on these things. (And, actually, you can have vanilla Psylocke pretty easily. Just assume Brian hasn't turned into Captain Britain yet, make her a little younger and send her straight to Xavier's, bypassing STRIKE, her stint as the Captain, Mojo and all, but I digress....)

Give me some ideas here, please. (And if you're idea is "I wouldn't do it, 'cause it's lame," then feel free to save your fingers the wear and tear they would occur in typing it.)

Thanks,

- Scorpio enquiring.

[tetsujin28]

*shrug* I've never cared for any of Morrison's stuff. For me, the golden period is Uncanny X-Men (the original) 1-30, and X-Men 94-c.140 (the "classic" New X-Men). I haven't bought an X-title in nearly 20 years.

[professorzoom]

So which characters are worth using?

Okay, you're re-booting the X-Universe? Then you'd start with Xavier and Magneto. The core of the X-Universe, so to speak. I'd also agree with you about New X-Men..For real continuity stuff...it's just amazing what he's done. Oh, that means you should REALLY put in the Hellfire Club, with Sebastian Shaw at the head, and the White Queen at his side if you so choose.

Beyond those key elements, the rest is yours to add or subtract as you see fit. I'd sort of steer clear from Apocaloser and Mister Mister Sister Sinister Minister. Or, even better, combine those two elements into something else, a different type of villain. Also, the Ultimate universe's use of the Sentinels is cool, IMO. You might also look into the Ultimate's version of the way Xavier's school works. Yes, it's cynical. But it's far more realistic, IMO.

Which plots seem fresh or interesting, or could be looked at from a fresh perspective to find something new and intriguing? Someone made a good point that it's impossible to have Archangel on the team without going into his whole background with Apocalypse. It's impossible to have Psylocke without at least bringing Mojo in (technically at least) and it's impossible to have Ninja Psylocke without bringing in The Hand, The Seige Perilous, Roma and The Adversary.

Ah, but it's not impossible if you take the time to flesh out her background. You could have her train under Stick before the Capatain Britain thing, where the house becomes a robot (sic). The Hand...BLECH. NO MORE NINJAS! NINJAS ARE A LAAAAAME PLOT DEVICE. This is only my opinion, but ninjas are an example of a tired, tired, tired gimmick.

Mojoworld is a cool concept that could use a fresh take.

Arcade is IMO one of the most underutilized villains in the X-Universe.

Zoom

[RogueWriter]

I think that one of the reasons that Arcade is underutilized is the first story he appeared in. I remember reading it, and thinking that I'd read something very similar in a reprint of Batman stories from the '50s.... Sure, it was done with a more modern attitude, but a giant murderous pinball machine is right out of '50s DC. Sorry, but I just couldn't take the story seriously. It colored my view of Arcade as campy right then.

RogueWriter

[RogueWriter]

I love criticism as much as the next guy, but you can't be serious when you say the Ultimate X-Men's primary focus is 'angst'. The primary focus of the Ultimate X-Men title is the goal of Charles Xavier versus the fears of humanity and the occasional mutant uprising.

Ummm, I wasn't. That was the point of the after my Ultimate Angst line.... It was a joke.

What's that?

An attempt at humor, which evidently fell short of working for you. Sorry

Oh, you're referring to the characters being angst ridden. Specifically, you're referring to the fact that NOW the characters are MORE angst-ridden than when they were originally conceived.

These characters are angst-ridden to the point where I no longer have any empathy for them. One thing in fiction that is universal, is that the reader has to have some emotional investment in the characters. I just don't care about the x-characters anymore. They hold little to no interest for me. And, I quite reading the x-men consistently during Claremont/Byrne....

<Shields are holding>

RogueWriter

[tetsujin28]

These characters are angst-ridden to the point where I no longer have any empathy for them. One thing in fiction that is universal, is that the reader has to have some emotional investment in the characters. I just don't care about the x-characters anymore. They hold little to no interest for me. And, I quite reading the x-men consistently during Claremont/Byrne....

Yep, that's it. My problem is that they've become impossible to empathize with prats over the last 20 years or so.

[Bubba242]

But the point of this game (and this thread) is not to discuss Millar's UXM. It's to discuss how you (or I) would handle the characters and setting if given a similar remit

I disagree to the exclusion of millars UXM. If you're going to look at how you would handle a character, it never hurts to look at some-one elses view. AT the very best, you can steal ideas to make yours work better. At the very least, it will take your mind off the smell that is coming out of the bathroom.

But I think an idea might be for characters to be of the new mutants persuausion, just so that there is an excuse for them to interact with the x-men but with no chance of everyone screaming " I wanna be wolvie!"
For those of you young enough to have missed the new mutants, charles xavier founded them when everyone thought the x-men were dead during claremonts run. I think the Xmen were either in space or lost in the savage land.

The point is that you have a young group that you won't have trouble justifying their PL10 placing to your players, and you can either pad or scale out their feats to make them match up evenly.

And that's my two cents.

Cheers all.

[Sketchpad]

So, set certain ground rules. Say, "Here's what happened in my X-Universe" and let it go at that.

Or, run Age of Apocalypse. I've been dying to run that one.

That's what I used to do with the Saga MSH ... it was the MU, but one that had a divergence to the actual storylines. The heroes were the main focus and they slowly went up against a multitude of MU characters (The team, lacking their powerhouses, against the Hulk was great stuff ).
There was a stint that we ran a month of alterverses in the MU: WWII, Age of Apocalypse, Days of Future Past, Kulan Gath's Fantasy universe, The Mirror Universe, etc ... fun stuff

As far as the UX-M, I like the series quite a bit ... but mainly because it's a bit different and has some decent storylines. This is coming from someone that dispises what they did to mainstream Marvel and would wish they'd Crisis on Infinite Earths the universe ... There was talk at one point of them "Ultimizing" the entire universe, which would be a great thing IMO. The Ultimates (when it comes out) is a great series and Ultimate Spidey has been quite enjoyable The MU needs a jump start ... and I would glady hold the cables to their battery ...

[professorzoom]

Rogue Writer...

For the record...

You didn't refute any of my points. Your rebuttal was simply taking the first part of what I said out of context, then adding the same opinion on the end along with jokes. Not that I fault you for simply stating your opinion, but you didn't have the courtesy to quote me fully.

So, let me re-iterate, for those who don't have the patience to go back and see what I wrote. Your opinion is based on your tastes. Since the Ultimate X-Men line is one of the best selling titles at Marvel, it would tend to prove that the majority of readers share my opinion of the book, and therefore my tastes in comics. But, we're not discussing our particular tastes.

Aesthetic is a very personal thing, and far be it from me to claim that your tastes are poor or mine are exceptional, when it's a completely subjective area.

The point of my post was to point out that the essential character points have always been mired in angst within the X-Men series. You may seem to think that the Ultimates comics dwell on these facts too much, but then you cite no proof as to why you would feel this way. You also make it clear that you don't read the titles, because they're too angst-ridden. So, how does this make you the arbiter of what the intent of the issues are, when you have no first hand knowledge of it?

You saw the first issues, and you didn't like what you saw. Fine. I get that, and since I am a reasonable person, I don't have a problem with your opinion. You continue to say that the issues are 'angst-ridden' to back up your distaste for the comic, and I put forth the opinion that the comics' level of angst hasn't changed a bit since the Lee/Kirby days.

A fact that you didn't take time to respond to.

Also, pay close attention to this point, as it is important. The reason I respond to this is to point out that the stories are not more 'angst-ridden'.
Here's an example. Thwe first issue of the "Wold Tour" story arc shows the X-Men Storm and Jean Grey rollerblading in Europe. Yeah, angsty goodness there. Then we see Wolverine, Colossus, and Iceman in a bar...WHOA! Stop the angst! It's too much. Not to mention all of the light hearted banter throughout the Tomorrow People storyline, and the beginning of the Return to Weapon-X.

See, taken all together, these characters are more realistic, and more true to the original concept of the X-Men, while retaining much of the lighthearted spirit of comics. See I do like the Claremont/Byrne X-Men, but I think the Shi'Ar and all the space stuff and Starjammers stuff was way off-theme for that comic.

But you want to talk about angst, how about Wolverine and crew KILLING Jean Grey on the moon during the Dark Phoenix Saga?! How about the Forge/Storm "powers getting shut off" storyline? How angsty was that?! What about the 'Days of Future Past' storyline...The headline for the first issue of that, in case you don't remember: "IN THIS ISSUE: EVERYBODY DIES!" I would also point out that that led to other storylines of angst: X-Cutioner's Song, X-Tinction Agenda, hell, even the Asgard Saga had moments of REAL angst.

Feel free to rebut these points in any way you see fit, but do me the courtesy of quoting the realavent bits of my comments.

Zoom

[professorzoom]

I think the Xmen were either in space or lost in the savage land.

I'm pretty sure this was after the Siege Perilous/Adversary storyline, when Rictor, Magma, Cannnonball, et al were added to the ranks. The X-Men were in Australia. Jubilee was a homeless mutant at the time, and Storm was a punkrocker. This was just before the Silvestri run, that had the Brood and stuff, if I'm not mistaken.


Zoom

[RogueWriter]

What's that?

Oh, you're referring to the characters being angst ridden. Specifically, you're referring to the fact that NOW the characters are MORE angst-ridden than when they were originally conceived.

Here's the definition of the word angst, for you folks who think that the focus of these stories is simply angst.

A feeling of anxiety or apprehension often accompanied by depression.

Hmmm.... You don't think that this might have been a tad condescending? Zoom, you'll get farther in life if you realize that no one likes to be talked down to.

You didn't refute any of my points. Your rebuttal was simply taking the first part of what I said out of context, then adding the same opinion on the end along with jokes. Not that I fault you for simply stating your opinion, but you didn't have the courtesy to quote me fully.

No. I didn't. I found your patronizing manner not worth replying to in the manner which I would have normally.

I told some X-Men jokes, interspersed with my opinions about the X-Men in general. You took the ball and ran out into the parking lot with it.

The Angst thing was for the most part, a joke.... One that obviously got under your skin. I never said I don't read X-Men, I said that I don't read X-Men consistently. I do occasionally pick up an issue. I don't read Ultimate X-Men. I read the first collected volume, and found that I didn't like the book. If you'd bothered to read the other posts from this thread that I've posted, you realize that I have never said anything against the Ultimate universe, and that I have read Ultimate Spider-Man. For the record, I like it and Ultimates as well.

To be serious for a moment, the whole point of the Ultimate Universe is to let newer writers and artists have the chance to take established characters from the beginning. Of the three titles, unfortunately, I find Ultimate X-Men to be the weakest of the three. I got the feeling that they were trying to shovel every fan-fave plot point into the story as fast as they could. It didn't work for me. Ultimates, and Ultimate Spider-Man have a pace which makes more sense to me.

If this gave you the idea that I don't like the Ultimate universe, and that I don't read any of the titles, I'm sorry. I obviously need to work on my writing skills, as I'm not getting my point across. For clarification's sake, by pace I meant the pace of character development.

I didn't respond to all of your previous points because I didn't feel the need. I'm not going to respond to all of your current points for the same reason. I don't feel like getting into a nitpicking duel. You have your opinion, I have mine. You aren't going to change mine, and I don't feel the need to try and change yours. So back off. This is on the edge of becoming personal, and I won't go there. If you want to preach about the level of angst in X-Men for the last forty years (approx.) find someone else.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled style of posting...

<Sir, Engineering reports that the ship's stores are all out of seriousness.>

RogueWriter

[professorzoom]

Hmmm.... You don't think that this might have been a tad condescending? Zoom, you'll get farther in life if you realize that no one likes to be talked down to.

You mean, like you're doing now? Or perhaps how you responded to the post prior to this one? Look man, my point was that you are certainly free to have a conflicting opinion to my own, but I disagree wholeheartedly with the 'more angst now vs. less angst then' view you seemingly took.

I found your patronizing manner not worth replying to in the manner which I would have normally.

Ah. Well, I'm sorry if clarifying the definition of terms before speaking is patronizing. I certainly didn't mean to offend you in any way.

I said that I don't read X-Men consistently. I do occasionally pick up an issue. I don't read Ultimate X-Men. I read the first collected volume, and found that I didn't like the book.

I hate quoting you so much, because it's a tad insulting, but you know, I thought my opinion was clear and focused on only the Ultimate X-Men title. And I referred specifically to the fact you read the first couple of issues and didn't like it, and you refuised to give any of the rest of the issues a shot.

If you'd bothered to read the other posts from this thread that I've posted, you realize that I have never said anything against the Ultimate universe, and that I have read Ultimate Spider-Man. For the record, I like it and Ultimates as well.

Yes, and if you'd bothered to read the beginning of your own post this time out, you would probably see how ironic it is to chastise someone for being patronizing, then succumbing to it yourself less than three paragraphs later.

I read your posts. And I share the same views about the Ultimates universe. Cool stuff. My entire point has really nothing to do about attacking your opinion of the book, it is trying to clarify that it is certainly NOT more angst-ridden now than it was then.

I didn't respond to all of your previous points because I didn't feel the need. I'm not going to respond to all of your current points for the same reason.

Well, I'd have preferred some evidence to the contrary about what I was on about, but I guess your refusal to continue this means you concede that my points are correct.

This is a joke.

I don't feel like getting into a nitpicking duel. You have your opinion, I have mine. You aren't going to change mine, and I don't feel the need to try and change yours. So back off. This is on the edge of becoming personal, and I won't go there. If you want to preach about the level of angst in X-Men for the last forty years (approx.) find someone else.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I would like to point out that while I did defend the Ultimate X-Men title, I didn't want to personally offend you in terms of your opinion of the book. It's not like I have stock in the company. It's just that I read SOOOO much criticism of the book, and it all revolves around the same 'It's so angst-ridden' type of complaint, that it gets on my nerves. It does touch a nerve with me, I'll be honest. So respond or don't, I was hoping that we'd at least exchange points of view, and again, I apologize for being patronizing if it came off that way.


Uh...Set phasers to...er...apologize or something.

Zoom

[RogueWriter]

Zoom, I have to say that I'm guilty of being thin-skinned myself. For that, and being somewhat of an ass, I apologize.

No hard feelings.

If you're agreeable, I'd like to just let it drop.

RogueWriter

[darkhammer]

For X-Men, why not get the players to start up a "west coast" x-men , or a new generation of New Mutants (blows the hell out of the recent x-farce).

This way you get the x ethos, you can enable the players to strech there imaginations by creating new characters, you could bring in some obscure villans from the x-past, and develop pur own.

Personally I am going to start up a young x-academy, based at the Frost Academy after Gen X had left,run by Forge and Sharon Friedlander (name that supporting character).

Using a established backstory is ok, but I always try and get away from the baggage that has been created by the past writers, mainly because I dont want players quoting issues at me when I use a power nullifier that was "destroyed by being propelled into a quantum void".

and it also stops me being disappointed when the players dont live up to my expectations of chracters they think they can get a handle on, but as they dont read the comics as avidly as I do, they dont destroy my expectations of such.

[professorzoom]

LOL...

What about the Great Lakes X-Men?

Zoom

[Corwin]

We did this a while back, under a home-brew system we've been playing for many years.

The game centered around us being a young team of Professor X's students, based out of a new school on the West Coast, and called ourselves X-treme.

Quite fun.

[Joshua Dyal]

Eh, I thought the Ultimate X-Men was one of the best comics in quite some time -- it got me back into comics after having left it for close to ten years. I did pull out my Claremont/Silvestri/Lee X-Men recently, and my older Claremont/Byrne X-Men, and my original run of X-factor, etc. but frankly, I think the concept of the Ultimate X-Men is the way I'd run it. One of the things I really like about it is the fact that it's morally somewhat ambiguous. In some ways, although Magneto is certainly pretty extreme, he has a sympathetic position to a certain extent, and most of the X-men are at least tempted, at some point, to throw in with his agenda rather than Xavier's.

I also really like the Age of Apocalypse, where a lot of traditional villains and heroes reversed roles.

If I were doing what you were doing, I'd probably do something like that -- not as extreme an alternate reality as Age of Apocalypse, but be very upfront that a lot of the base assumptions about who's allied with who and what happened to who are not going to be valid. Sure, characterizations and motivations for the characters will still be the same, but if you change the events, the way the characters look and act could be completely different. It only takes a little push to make Wolverine seem an awful lot like Sabretooth and vice versa, for example.

[DukeOfAFairAmount]

For X-Men, why not get the players to start up a "west coast" x-men... <snipped for space>

Very nice idea, DarkHammer. Similarly, you can set an X-Men/Marvel type setting anywhere.

The campaign I started running this month is located in central New Jersey, Princeton to be precise. This is the location I put my version of the 'Xavier Institute', a college-prep/junior college for enhanced power beings. I chose the location both because of my familiarity with the area and the proximity to major U.S. cities (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington). The timeline starts with a near realworld setting of the world in January 1983, augmented with a pseudo-history of some superheroes (Captain America in the '40s, Spiderman in the '60s-'70s) and a recent rise in those considered 'genetically special'. Other that that to add the flavor, the historical world events are the same.

For those wondering why I picked the early/mid eighties to set a campaign, scan the web for history. Ronald Reagan was President of the US, the cold-war in full swing with a former KGB chief in charge of the Soviet Union, personal computers in their infancy, mobile phones as we know them not on the scene. This is a time ripe with change, hope, and fear. Makes a great backdrop for the campaign. (Also, I like the music from then.)

Of course, this does pre-date the Ultimate X-Men, but it was also a good time period for Marvel comics and the various X-Series books.

Oh, for those who care, all of the Player Characters are new concepts (PL7) and not deliberately based on tried and true Marvel characers. It is many of the NPCs they interact with that are the classic mutants and superbeings we all know so well. Most are students at the school and all the characters were recruited by Professor-X to join the team.

We're having a blast! (Energy Blast - Extra: Area Effect)

'nuff said.

- Adam -
Minnesota, USA

[Strand0]

One of the things I really like about it is the fact that it's morally somewhat ambiguous. In some ways, although Magneto is certainly pretty extreme, he has a sympathetic position to a certain extent, and most of the X-men are at least tempted, at some point, to throw in with his agenda rather than Xavier's.

Interresting.
But what springs to mind is that in ten year, after three or four other writers have taken a crack at the Ulti-X-Men. They with be just as confussing as the vanilla X-mens. IMO.

[Joshua Dyal]

But what springs to mind is that in ten year, after three or four other writers have taken a crack at the Ulti-X-Men. They with be just as confussing as the vanilla X-mens. IMO.

I never commented at all on the confusion of the vanilla teams. I don't have a problem with that, really.

[Strand0]

But what springs to mind is that in ten year, after three or four other writers have taken a crack at the Ulti-X-Men. They with be just as confussing as the vanilla X-mens. IMO.

I never commented at all on the confusion of the vanilla teams. I don't have a problem with that, really.

I was not talking about the different teams. I'm talking about the story telling. Year affter year of pileing up stories. Good writers, bad writers, re-imaginings and cross overs.

[Joshua Dyal]

OK, but I'm talking about the style of the books. I don't see how what you said has anything to do with what I said and you quoted. Sure, I agree with you -- if it keeps up, and they keep adding Ultimate titles, sure the same thing will happen in 40 years as we have now with the regular X-books. So what?

[Nightlynx]

hummm with all the Ultimate talk going on i am given this one the big *BUMP*

enjoy

peace and good gaming

Nightlynx