Do I have to also buy the D&D rules to play this game?

[therealtony]

Hi! I am a huge superhero RPG fan and I was told to check this game out by a friend of mine.


I am not all that familier with the world of D20. I know that much like GURPS there are a variety of different genre you can play using the D20 engine. I really like what I see for M&M and I was wondering if I purchase this game do I also have to buy the D20 D&D rules or is Mutants & Masterminds a stand alone?

thanks! I hope this question hasn't been asked before..

[Tenzhi]

As with many other d20 games, all the info you need should be in the book, I imagine. However, if they don't get all of the basic d20 rules you need into the book you can find them at http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html rather than purchasing the DnD PHB.

[Erik Mona]

Unless something radical changes, you're not going to need the D&D books to play M&M. Familiarity with D&D will help you pick up the rules much, much faster, but it's not presently a requirement.

--Erik Mona
Lead Editor, Super Unicorn
www.superunicorn.com

[SassyRonin]

Unless something radical changes, you're not going to need the D&D books to play M&M. Familiarity with D&D will help you pick up the rules much, much faster, but it's not presently a requirement.

Hey Erik,

Is M&M bearing the d20 System logo, or are we going OGL? Doesn't that determine whether the Player's Handbook is required?

Thanks!

[Jetboy]

fyi... I noticed on the D20 version of Silver Age Sentinels back cover, "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition Core Books..." It has the "d20 system" logo on it as well.

Given the steep price for some of these books ($39.95 for SAS, for example), I'd hope they'd be complete.

Alan

[Steve Kenson]

Given the steep price for some of these books ($39.95 for SAS, for example), I'd hope they'd be complete.

Well, Mutants & Masterminds is priced at $32.95 (a steal, IMHO, for a full-color hardcover) and it will be complete.

[Superior]

I have the D20 SAS book and it looks pretty complete to me.... I mean the only thing that you really need the PHB for is if you wanted to use the original 3rd D&D system rules. SAS has its own variant rules that can be found in the DMG book for D&D. Just my thoughts...... Looking forward to Mutants and Masterminds. One last thing is it going to be compatible with SAS d20?

[Erik Mona]

Probably not, no. If it's compatible with SAS d20 it's because both have a relationship with the d20 system. M&M, honestly, is much much closer to standard d20, even though there are no hit points and players have all sorts of super-powers. My impression of SAS d20, after giving it a brief look, is that it is really a Tri-Stat game with some d20 flourishes to make it an easier learn for d20 fans. Mutants & Masterminds, on the other hand, was born and bred a d20 system game. Though both share a common lineage, they're different fish.

--Erik Mona
Lead Editor
www.superunicorn.com

[Warchild]

Probably not, no. If it's compatible with SAS d20 it's because both have a relationship with the d20 system. M&M, honestly, is much much closer to standard d20, even though there are no hit points and players have all sorts of super-powers. My impression of SAS d20, after giving it a brief look, is that it is really a Tri-Stat game with some d20 flourishes to make it an easier learn for d20 fans. Mutants & Masterminds, on the other hand, was born and bred a d20 system game. Though both share a common lineage, they're different fish.

--Erik Mona
Lead Editor
www.superunicorn.com

Yeah, no kidding. Thats first time i've heard a "D20" publisher be proud that his "D20" had barely any similarity with D20!!

Frankly i wasn't real hot on a classless D20 supers, now i am turning a 180 on the subject. More so than any other genre, super heroes (especially) are nearly impossible to define with a few classes (even with multiclassing). The classes would get so watered down that you might as well have a classless system. Or you would end up with a million classes and prestige classes. Or you would end up with 1 Hero class like FT4C from Nat 20. Which i think is a good way to go, if not classless.

[Steve Kenson]

Frankly i wasn't real hot on a classless D20 supers, now i am turning a 180 on the subject. More so than any other genre, super heroes (especially) are nearly impossible to define with a few classes (even with multiclassing). The classes would get so watered down that you might as well have a classless system.

That's pretty much exactly the same line of reasoning I followed, Warchild. Early on I tinkered with the idea of various classes, but they were either too narrow and limited or so broad that there was little point in having them, so it just made more sense to drop classes from the game.

[Greg K]

All I can say is that I am thankful that M&M is classless and lacks hit dice. Ever since I first tried Palladium's Heroes Unlimited (which is a big misnomer), I have been convinced that classes and level based hit dice are a mistake for superhero rpgs trying to emulate the comic book genre. The release of Foundation only served to convince me that I was right.

Hopefully, after the release of M&M, other d20 designers will try to be innovative and stop pigeonholing d20 into the DND class model.

[Warchild]

All I can say is that I am thankful that M&M is classless and lacks hit dice. Ever since I first tried Palladium's Heroes Unlimited (which is a big misnomer), I have been convinced that classes and level based hit dice are a mistake for superhero rpgs trying to emulate the comic book genre. The release of Foundation only served to convince me that I was right.

I wouldn't blame the Foundation game on anyone but Nightshift. They screwed that pooch all on their own and it didn't have anything to do with classes or hit points. Although the revision by Joe Miller made it playable.
Palladium was my first super hero game, so it stills carries a place in my heart. But it does have a laundry list of problems. I don't really play it anymore. We might start a game after a year or two and after 1 or 2 sessions we'll say.."Oh yeah. Thats why we stopped!" Same with Champions.

I like the classless rules for M&M, so far. What i have seen anyway! grr.

Hopefully, after the release of M&M, other d20 designers will try to be innovative and stop pigeonholing d20 into the DND class model.

Well...i wouldn't mind if the genre truly demanded it, but i wouldn't want that to start happening as a rule. Classes are generally pretty important to D20. especially now that they have the multiclassing rules down pat!!

[Warchild]

Frankly i wasn't real hot on a classless D20 supers, now i am turning a 180 on the subject. More so than any other genre, super heroes (especially) are nearly impossible to define with a few classes (even with multiclassing). The classes would get so watered down that you might as well have a classless system.

That's pretty much exactly the same line of reasoning I followed, Warchild. Early on I tinkered with the idea of various classes, but they were either too narrow and limited or so broad that there was little point in having them, so it just made more sense to drop classes from the game.

You do what you have to do to get the book right, Steve! I got no complaints, yet!

[Wolverspleen]

I too am glad that MnM is going with levels but not classes. As odd as it sounds I felt one was perfect for the genre(levels) but the other just didn't sit(classes).

I still have some concerns about the game(mainly what I've seen about the combat rules and how certain powers, like dynamic strength, will be handled) but nothing major thus far. Or at least nothing that can be fixed with a few simple house rules. Overall I must say I haven't anticipated a game like this since WotC was releasing the first edition of D20 Star Wars(and I don't care what anyone says, I love that game!)

While I have a nasty habit of finding something good to talk about with any system(even the dreaded Marvel Saga most people hate) I don't think it'll be too hard finding points to herald with MnM. October just isn't coming fast enough!

[Warchild]

While I have a nasty habit of finding something good to talk about with any system(even the dreaded Marvel Saga most people hate) I don't think it'll be too hard finding points to herald with MnM. October just isn't coming fast enough!

Agreed!