Unit question

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Re: Unit question

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:32 pm

The numbers given by Kajani amount to some 370000 men under arms.
Estimates i have seen for population of Westeros is between 5 Millions and 75 millions.
Either way the numbers stays under 10%, which would be sustainable for an agrarian society (depending on soild between 60% and 90% have to work the fields to supply everybody with food).
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Re: Unit question

Postby Paedrig » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:46 am

You mean the numbers given by Tedric, not by Kajani...


The numbers of armies might not only restricted by the number of men which could be called to arms - the logictic (get the mens together in the right time - and of course feed them) will also play a role.
Especially given the huge distances of Westeros.

Many armies were restricted by the inability to feed men and horses over some time (and far away of secure food sources).
Westeros most propably do not have such sophisticated logistics like the roman (or chinese) army.
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Re: Unit question

Postby Flagg » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:25 am

After 10+ years of summer, I imagine there's a surplus of food pretty much everywhere.
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Re: Unit question

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:45 am

And you can always just kill that son-of-abitch farmer if he does not want to share.
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Re: Unit question

Postby Paedrig » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:28 am

Flagg
Do not forget the limitation of the storing of food. The means of conservation are not so elaborated since today.
Flour can not be stored unlimited and with meat it is also not so easy...

DaimosofRedstone
This could also become a problem (like the english had tzo learn numerous times during the 100years war).
And especially for large armies. Even "small" armies of a few thousend men could empty a area (not only by consumating the food but also by the fact that plundering etc. can go out of hand pretty fast, destroying much more food and food resources than it is neccessary).
And to get enough food (for men AND horses) of a army of some ten thousend men/horses...
Especially if the enemy (and the farmers) know what is to come...
Food is destroyed or burried away, the troops which should get the food come under attack...

And of course requiration and plundering slow down an army.
Because of this i think a wise commander should not send to much men in one army - at least if he is not certain how to feed them...
And such spekulation might be a cause for some sort of limitation of the number of an army.
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Re: Unit question

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:47 am

Did not seem to be any headache for anyone in the Riverlands... :D
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Re: Unit question

Postby Paedrig » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:57 am

Hmm...
Was it not so, that it become quite problematic to feed the different armies which operated in the Riverlands?

Lord Tywins order to torch the riverlands was given to rather small detachments of his army while the bigger units marshed to another theatre.

And remember my intention was to find some explanation while f. e. Robb "only" send 20.000 men into the south and why most armies of the War of the Five Kings were not bigger allthough there might be the potential number of men to create quite bigger armies...
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Re: Unit question

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:24 am

One explanation is that bigger is not always better in an army.
Too small is bad for obvious reasons.
Too big though is bad because it gets hard to control.
There are times were smaller armies chewed up larger armies piece by piece because the different pieces of the bigger fish were not aware that the others were being eaten.
The North also seems to have more a smallfolk martial tradition so might well be that one Northmen is worth more on the battlefield than one Southerner, just like Clansmen and Reavers.
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Re: Unit question

Postby Saturno » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:24 pm

Robb did not had enough time to raise a bigger army as the North is gigantic. With enough time the King of the North could march south with 35.000-40.000 men IMO.
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Re: Unit question

Postby Kajani » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:25 am

On that point I disagree a bit. I think the rapid sucess of the Ironmen shows that the North had already sent a huge part of his men to the south. Several lords had not sent too much, but that the North was so much weakened that the mad Greyjoy thought it might be a easy prey says a lot (although this guy was never very wise when it comes to calculate the chances... :lol: )
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Re: Unit question

Postby Saturno » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Well, I think the North was vulnerable because half of its force marched south and because the other half was disorganized and scattered through this immense land.
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Re: Unit question

Postby coldwind » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:52 am

Kajani wrote:On that point I disagree a bit. I think the rapid sucess of the Ironmen shows that the North had already sent a huge part of his men to the south. Several lords had not sent too much, but that the North was so much weakened that the mad Greyjoy thought it might be a easy prey says a lot (although this guy was never very wise when it comes to calculate the chances... :lol: )


Rapid success?

The Ironborn took three places - Deepwood Motte (by sea - their specialty), Moat Cailin (by coming up the Saltspear - and not up the causeway against which the ruin is notedly defensible), and after a feint on Torrhen's Square, Theon took Winterfell by trickery.

And notedly, as soon as anybody in the north decided to take one of those back, it happens easily.

Yes, the North sent quite a few men south, and so by definition their forces were depleted, but the issue is certainly more one of distance to cover in mustering and a general undercurrent of opportunism for many supposedly loyal lords and nobles than any particular weakness of arms.
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Re: Unit question

Postby Kajani » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:04 am

Please forget not that the easy recapture was also at least in some part the result of Eurons new "strategy" (or insanity I would call it) - he withdraw nearly all men. The Ironmen did also destroy a lot of smaller hamlets if I am correct, and with very limited forces.
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Re: Unit question

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:22 am

To destroy hamlets you should only need very small forces.
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Re: Unit question

Postby coldwind » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Kajani wrote:Please forget not that the easy recapture was also at least in some part the result of Eurons new "strategy" (or insanity I would call it) - he withdraw nearly all men. The Ironmen did also destroy a lot of smaller hamlets if I am correct, and with very limited forces.


Not in the slightest, arguably*.

Deepwood Motte was Asha's prize, and she didn't follow Euron's orders, and Winterfell was Theon's to lose to Ramsay's betrayal. Yes, Euron pulled men off Moat Cailin, but it was taken from the North (from where it isn't a great defense), but also by trickery. Arguably*, Euron's orders pulled a more experienced and jaded commander from the Moat that wouldn't have been tricked as easily, but I given the namelessness of the Ironborn characters at Moat Cailin, I doubt it would have changed things much.
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