form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Paedrig » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:29 am

Read the Core Rule Book at page 22: "Septas tend to be seen as equal to septons in the faith".
Plus the fact that concerning the mentioning of ceremonies AND the role as teachers/ tutors the text sound...not gender specific to me. Nothing said that one of this roles is the main taks for female or male members of the faith.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Eisen » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:10 am

Good catch Paedrig. I think the Silent Sisters are closer to nuns then Septas. As to the sept in Winterfell; Eddard built that as a gift to please his new wife. If septas are inferiour to septons then why wouldn't he insist on a man to run things instead of Septa Mordane? Lord Stark strikes me as someone who would always do things by the book.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Zorbeltuss » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:06 pm

Septon Chayle was in charge of the Winterfell sept.

Mordane was tutoring the daughters.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Carriker » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:29 pm

Exactly, Zorbeituss. I mean, my point is that there is absolutely zero precedence from the novels themselves (the only true source for the setting) for septas occupying priestly - rather that nun-like - positions in the Church.

And really, as much as it pains me to say, even if that quoted line from the corebook were referring to a septa's position in the church (which it's not - it's talking about how they are regarded in society), it wouldn't be the first time something in error had found its way into our books. There used to be a line in the Campaign Guide about how bastards couldn't be knights. :-/
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Paedrig » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:18 am

Yeah but i would go annother way.
As long as Martin did not state it out other ways (as he did for the Bastards - he mentioned a bastard knight f. e.), it is i. m. o. o. K. to use the what is written in the core rule books, without to be concerned what MIGHT be.

That you could not find a septa who is in charge of a sepot in the booksdoes not mean, that there are no ones. Simply no one was mentioned. After all Martins Books give only a few examples of septs (and septons/septas) of a HUGE continent.

For the moment this is enough i think... :wink:
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Roadspike » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:18 am

Based on the reaction of Southron knights to Brienne of Tarth and the Mormont ladies, I would assume that anyone who knighted a woman would be pressured to state that he did so mistakenly (she was pretending to be a boy, he was drunk, whatever), or otherwise renounce his action. Even the best of men in Westeros tend to be chauvinistic, especially south of the Neck, and especially in the Reach.

It's only because we're looking at the series from a modern point of view that we even see this as wrong. In the milieu, (noble) women were something to be protected and treated like they were made of glass. You didn't thrust them into a role where they would be asked to step out onto a battlefield. And that's what a knight is... a warrior first and foremost, even a landed knight.

I would actually expect that if the son of a landed knight (with a hereditary holding) was not willing or able to become a knight himself, he would be addressed as Master of <location> rather than The Knight of <location>, just like the Northmen who rule holdings but are not Lords (Helman Tallhart, Robett Glover, etc). Granted, there's nothing in the books to back this up, but I expect that the sons of landed knights (with hereditary holdings) are very, very strongly pressured to become knights themselves, so it doesn't come up often.

To the original poster's question, however, I would assume that a woman who took over a Masterly/Knightly house in Dorne would be called "Lady." "Mistress" just sounds wrong, and it's always better to present a higher title to a lady than a lower one.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby devilsgrin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:48 pm

since regardless of rhoynar custom, female knights don't exist even in dorne, the ruler of a House with the influence equivalent of Landed Knight would be titled the same as a knight's wife... which is always Lady, as in Westeros there are only three noble titles for women. Queen, princess and lady.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby ceranko » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:45 am

Probably Dame whatever her last name is.
Dame Yronwood of the Yronwood ect.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby devilsgrin » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:48 am

there is absolutely ZERO reference to the title Dame in Westeros. Even in Dorne, women are NOT knighted. Therefore they cannot be Dames. Ever. Unless we see it on page, Dames don't exist in this world. Lady would be the correct title. the OP and those who take their post so literally are hung up on the "status rank" of the house making it a landed knight's. this is a VAGUE guide. Not a hard and fast categorization. Its entirely probable that a Lord could be ruling a house of such low status.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Kajani » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:20 am

I would not agree to see this so "never, ever, any". When Lord Renly made Brienne part of his personal guard, the rainbow-guard, this was surely uncommon and many people think this (and Brienne as person) wasstrange, but I think that made her a knight more or less. I think she was not the only woman in several thousand years since knighthood exist in Westeros (ok we did not know since when such a thing exist - with the comming of the Andals or how much later?).
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby ceranko » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:07 pm

I would say Lady then, since Dame doesn't exist.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Tao Jones » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:52 pm

Kajani wrote:I would not agree to see this so "never, ever, any". When Lord Renly made Brienne part of his personal guard, the rainbow-guard, this was surely uncommon and many people think this (and Brienne as person) wasstrange, but I think that made her a knight more or less. I think she was not the only woman in several thousand years since knighthood exist in Westeros (ok we did not know since when such a thing exist - with the comming of the Andals or how much later?).


Although she did win a place in her king's royal guard, she was still never a knight because she was never anointed by the Faith, a fact that gets thrown in her face a lot more in AFFC. So I would tend to agree that there are no legitimate female knights in Westeros, since it's a religious matter. By the same token, nearly none of the warriors that serve the Northern houses count as knights either, since they worship the Old Gods.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Do i get to not die if i can prove that the girl that just stabbed me is not a knight?
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Kajani » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:38 pm

It is indeed a religious question. BUT - did we know the rules of the Faith which say "no woman could ever be a knight"? As far as I know, we did not - we do actually did not know so much about the faith at all, even more if we mentioned that the faith exist over thousands of years and may have had twists, changes and so on. I would not be absolutly sure that over the centuries the one or other septon/ septa had a little bit different thought of that question. The faith has something in common with the catholic church and strict opinions about the roles of women - but there are also differences, because septas are much more important than female actors in the catholic church, I think. We speak about a time which is as long or even longer as the history of the christian church, which over the centuries changed A LOT (role of women, question of war, marriage of priests - there are great differences between the church of 200 ad, 1000 ad, 1800 ad and today - and although westeros is a static world, there may be huge differences too).
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby coldwind » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:05 am

Kajani wrote:The faith has something in common with the catholic church and strict opinions about the roles of women - but there are also differences, because septas are much more important than female actors in the catholic church, I think.


There has been zero references in the text that septas are any more important to the Faith than nuns are to the Catholic Church. Important, yes, but their main roles seem to be as teachers/governesses and aides inside of the septs.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby coldwind » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:06 am

DaimosofRedstone wrote:Do i get to not die if i can prove that the girl that just stabbed me is not a knight?


Strawman.

Nobody is saying that women can't fight. They're saying that they can't have the title , rights, and obligations of knighthood.

And there has been zero evidence in the books that suggest they can (and given the scorn thrown at Brienne for her hopes, there's at least a little bit that says no, they can't).
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Kajani » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:01 am

coldwind: But can't Septas hold formal church service etc.? Until now I thought they could and have not seen a clear indication they could not. WhichI think in the catholic church this is not so (at least for the most part of their existence). I think the septas are more normal priests as nuns are, given the fact that they work in great numbers outside the religious community. That the wealth-holding "Sept" includes a sept of the faith and a septa OR a septon means, as far as I understand, that both of them are capable of mastering the daily job of a priest, which a nun could not (she is not able to spend the sacrament, I think). You are right that Septas are strong in the field of education, but I think that is in part the result of the perspective of the books. Which people are mainly educated by septas? Young noblewomen. Why? Because they should be educated by women, I guess, and there are no female Maester - septas are (aside from some female merchantmen and noblewomen, I guess) the most educated people in Westeros.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Zorbeltuss » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:36 am

We've seen no evidence suggesting that septa's can hold services, though enough references to septons doing that.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby coldwind » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:23 pm

Kajani wrote:coldwind: But can't Septas hold formal church service etc.? Until now I thought they could and have not seen a clear indication they could not. WhichI think in the catholic church this is not so (at least for the most part of their existence). I think the septas are more normal priests as nuns are, given the fact that they work in great numbers outside the religious community. That the wealth-holding "Sept" includes a sept of the faith and a septa OR a septon means, as far as I understand, that both of them are capable of mastering the daily job of a priest, which a nun could not (she is not able to spend the sacrament, I think). You are right that Septas are strong in the field of education, but I think that is in part the result of the perspective of the books. Which people are mainly educated by septas? Young noblewomen. Why? Because they should be educated by women, I guess, and there are no female Maester - septas are (aside from some female merchantmen and noblewomen, I guess) the most educated people in Westeros.


While my sleep-deprived memory may be failing me, I only recall a handful of Faith services described in the books - Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion's wedding, Tywin's funeral... and all those were presided over by the High Septon.

Of note, during the discussions for the High Septon, not a one considered was a female. Considering only one had to be successful and have the character even slightly detailed, it would have been an easy insertion of an unsuccessful, but female, candidate had Martin wanted to express equality in the ranks of the Faith.

Your septas being in "great numbers" outside the Faith plays both ways though - you say they're outside the Faith because they hold a lot of sway, I say it's because there's relatively little they're allowed to do inside the Faith. And since their roles outside of the Faith amount to being governesses for young noblewomen, its not like they're playing up their power.

As for the Sept holding; 1. it says it allows Septons and Septa characters. It does not necessarily mean that they are the ones in charge of the Sept itself (although they do likely have a good number of duties there), and 2. even if the setting is a bit sexist, as a game company, Green Ronin needs to be a little more inclusionary in their gaming material.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Kajani » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:41 am

But according to the wiki of ice and fire some of the "most devout", the people who elect the High Septon, are septas. I do not know if this is correct, but if this would mean they have a very important role - and I could not believe that such people did not have nearly the same roles in the faith (and of course no nun had much. to say who should become pope). That information might be wrong, but I think the people who created the wiki did know the sources better than I.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Septa
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Paedrig » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:32 am

Coldwind
May I (again?) remind you that at least in the rpg books it is said that men and women in the faith are mostly equal? At least in the ranks below the top of the church.
And if in fact some of the "most devoted" are women than this certainly give the women a stronger position than (f. e.) women did have in the catholic church...

Martin himself did not say any explicit about this theme as far as i know. And as long as this did not change in books which might follow the rpg books are the only sources which say something about this topic in a more broader sense.
Everything beside this is only guessing based on a more meager data base (given the fact that few men/women of the faith are mentioned with a little bit more details) - but m. e. not enough to make a valuable statement about the situation for all Westeros which goes against the saying of the rpg books.

Of course in the end it is the decision of every group how they deal with this matter.


Concerning the main topic of the thread I am not certain. For now I see no indication for female knights - allthough the more...common form of knighting (simply by annother knight) might give some opportunities...
But it is still the question if such an action would be accepted by other knights and the faith...

Allthough i must agree that this thing with Brienne is a little bit open for interpretations.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Tao Jones » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:23 am

Frankly I don't see how the social standing of septas within the church has anything to do with whether females can be anointed as knights. We've seen no evidence to suggest that they can or have ever been. The obvious historical connections to Catholicism also support this.

In fact (at least up through my reading of AFFC), I've yet to encounter a single female with any real power within the Faith. Septas are more akin to schoolmarms and midwives, with Silent Sisters filling the role of nuns, and Septons holding all the real power, precisely because they're male. Westerosi society is blatantly and openly patriarchal and otherwise male-dominant.

While some argument for gender-determined "spheres of influence" could be made, I think it's clear that knighthood is a decidedly male pursuit.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Kajani » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:35 am

It has something to do with the way in which some members of the faith may see the question of roles for women. I absolutly agree with the opinion that female knights are a nearly no-go-area. But I am sceptical that anyone could say this with this "never, any, ever" meaning for thousands of years of history of both faith and knighthood. Even religions and churches differ a lot over the centuries. what we know is a very small part of the society and history.

* Spoiler *

And I would say if septas could become "most devout" this would be real power in my eyes. Schoolmarms and midwives and nuns are as far as I know no member of a council which chooses the highest ranking member of the faith. And they are not part of a court which could even judge a queen (or two) and sentence her to severe punishment...
The society is indeed male-dominant, but this mean not omnipresence of male power. In the faith the things are a little bit different, and in Dorne too.
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Paedrig » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:14 am

Tao Jones

The question about the role of women in the faith was discussed here beside the main topic. My text was mostly for this...
Excuse me if this created any misunderstanding.

But concerning your text i would again say that the number of examples of women/man of the faith which are mentioned are a little bit small to make a broader comment of their general role in the church which stand against the saying of the rule books that men and women are mostly equal in the faith...
And if there are in fact women as part of this elective council of "most devoted" for the High Septon this i. m. o. indicates a relatively strong standing - at least for a world like Westeros.

But i would agree with you that this does not say so much concerning the question "female knights" or not.

it still made me wonder that the sayings concerning knighthood seemed a little bit contradicting. On the one hand it is said that the faith of the seven took a great part in it (nad because of this no man of the north who pray to the old gods could become a knight) - and on the other hand there is the opportunity of a this potentually rather hasty and informal "knighting" by annother knight on the battle field - certainly without all the religious ceremonies... :-?
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Re: form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

Postby Tao Jones » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:12 pm

That's true, there are the knightings that happen on-the-spot. I just think it's very unlikely that a male knight would knight a female, since it goes against the whole institution of knighthood and chivalry. Doubtless, said knight would at the least become notorious for said act, suffer harsh criticism from his fellows, and possibly more dire consequences from priests of the Seven across Westeros. The most likely example of such a breach, to me, would be something like a Targaryen King anointing a female knight, because the Targaryens lived by different rules from the rest of Westeros and the people always accepted that. However, if that happened, it would surely have been a momentous event in recorded history, and I think we'd have heard about it.

The bit about septas on this deciding council, I'll concede, I know little about, since I haven't seen it discussed thus far in my readings (again, halfway through AFFC here; if it's not after that, I'd welcome a page reference). Dorne is obviously a special case, because women hold an entirely different role in their society as a whole. However, I've tried to find a root to each of my stances in the novels or in the real world, since I don't think the realm of "well maybe it's actually like this, when the evidence points to that" is useful to the discussion. If GRRM wanted septas to have the kind of power that septons enjoy, he would have shown them wielding that power. He knows very well that, as his audience, we only know what he tells us.

Being part of the council that elects the High Septon doesn't imply you have power over anything but that decision. This has historically been a common concession in many real-world patriarchal religions to allow women some small ceremonial role in the church's higher echelons, without giving them any real influence. Being one of the "most devout" doesn't infer any power in and of itself, as far as I can tell. As a real-world parallel, look at Mother Teresa. She was beloved worldwide for her devotion and charity and even beatified, but she never held sway over the inner workings of the Catholic Church.

I'd certainly never say it has never happened, of course, but I think that if it had, we'd have heard about it. If nothing else, it would make for great writing and a fascinating anecdote, as GRRM is fond of giving us.

As always, hope I haven't offended anyone with my interpretations. :)
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