form of address of Female landed knights in Dorne

[Zorbeltuss]

So I hit that question today.

Scenario is this:
The Dornish House I'm constructing has influence 19, which means landed knight, and I'm making the head of house female.

So what would the proper form of address be? Mistress? (compared to the northern non-Lord, non-knights such as Galbart Glover).

Presumably, Lady would be the actual form of address, but it doesn't look like the canon provides any clues.

[Oracle]

I would probably go with "dame." At least in the British system, dame is the closest thing there is to a female equivalent of knight. For example, when you hear about "Dame Judi Dench," it's the equivalent of "Sir Paul McCartney." I don't know if this fits the flavor of Dorne, as I haven't gotten to anything involving Dorne or the Martells yet in my reading of the books. But it's the closest I can think of.

On the flip side, in Westeros, the form of address is "ser," not "sir." Dragon Age also uses the "ser" spelling, and uses t he same form for men and women. So you could use "ser" for your female landed knight.

Another complication: as I understand it, knighthood in Westeros is tied pretty closely to the Faith of the Seven. Does the faith recognize female knights?

[coldwind]

Pretty sure it'd just be Lady.

Sexism at work - one generic title for all noblewomen

[Oracle]

If her knighthood is hereditary, there's another possible twist. I know you can't pull directly from the British system, but there is a name for a hereditary female knight: baronetess. The domain would be known as a baronetcy.

[Zorbeltuss]

In Scottish Peerage, Master is a title, with Mistress as it's female equivalent.

Thing is, the title of ser or knight of Castle Strawberry requires a knighting. As far as I can tell, a landed knight is the master of Castle Strawberry, which would be his title if he wasn't knighted, though I am not sure if there are any non-northerner examples.

So it could be quite reasonable to use mistress, and the medieval meaning of the term is actually quite fitting. Though it would be very much Dornish-Rhoynish to introduce a female equivalent to Ser. And very Knightly to declare that all women of high birth (including the daughters of hedge knights) are to be addressed as Lady.

[coldwind]

King, Queen, Lord, Knight and 'Ser' are First Men/Andal in origin.

The Rhoynish title to their rulers as Prince and Princess (but do use some Sers and Lords). Given that, what titles are appropriate in a principality as opposed to a kingdom? Any differences?

[Zorbeltuss]

There's different titles for different European nobility.

And Dorne is a mixture of Rhoynish to the south and much more Andal/first men in the north, so you'd find Andal-ish houses in the marches not very different from their Stormland and Reach neighbors.

But anyway, I found precedence.

House Tallhart is not of Lordly Rank, but the head of the house (9 year old) is Lady of Torrhen's Square.

[Gurkhal]

I would probably run a female knight as a "ser" as that's the generic title for knights.While one can argue that "ser" is an Andal cultural institution Dorne culture is to my understanding a mix between Rhoynar and Andal culture rather than strictly Rhoynar. Therefor I would think they'd keep the "ser" for all knights and including the female ones.

[Carriker]

The concept of a knight as a distinct title and honor is a product of Andal culture. I see no reason why it wouldn't use Andal terminology for such things. Since there isn't really any precedent for a female knight in Andal culture, if there were one among the Dornish, the title would probably default to "ser," in my mind.

[DaimosofRedstone]

I think we are getting this upside down.
Ours is a culture were until 50 years ago female warriors were a rarity and the classical role of the woman was, if not one of docility, then one centered around the hearth and the home (though this might extend quite some way into the commercial or agricultural sphere).
Thus 'Lady' to us, is a delicate, lacy-clad, fragile woman, to a certain extant we still breath in this the concepts of courtly love from the middle ages.
Dorne never had this.
They were not aggresively but unthinkingly in there equality of men and women. Women were always able to hold land and always able to inherit.
So if there are titles that denote gender in Dorne, we can safely assume that they do not come with the added weight we read into them.
Also, here i must disagree with Carriker, while chivalry seems to be andal invention, landholdership is not. And here i would argue that the important thing about a landed knight is not the knightly bit, since even a non-knight could fill a similar function, e.g. providing military support in exchange for a fief and in the North they seem to do just that with their low numbers of knights but equal numbers of 'armoured riders'.*
So the 'Landed Knight' is a landholder, not a knight (in fact the title is even unimportant to feudalism, as is chivalry as a concept of conduct, what is important is the function) first and foremost, so why would the Dornish choose 'Ser' a definit ale title, when they do not subscribe to the same 'males-only' politics?


*Up to the 12th century there is little to difference between a knight and somebody wearing armor and handling weapon. In fact 'knight' is just one name for such a soldier. Only when warlords... pardon, kings of Europe begin to hand out land to these soldiers in exchange for their service begins a distinction between somebody who wears armor and somebody who is a 'knight'. Add in two centuries of inheritance and a distinct code of conduct and you got a knight. But they still are not that special, given the fact that crossbowmen were sometimes awarded farms in exchange for their service in war.
In short 'knight' is more illusion than substance, a noble class who bought their own hype and every generation since did as well.

[Carriker]

Also, here i must disagree with Carriker, while chivalry seems to be andal invention, landholdership is not. And here i would argue that the important thing about a landed knight is not the knightly bit, since even a non-knight could fill a similar function, e.g. providing military support in exchange for a fief and in the North they seem to do just that with their low numbers of knights but equal numbers of 'armoured riders'.*
So the 'Landed Knight' is a landholder, not a knight (in fact the title is even unimportant to feudalism, as is chivalry as a concept of conduct, what is important is the function) first and foremost, so why would the Dornish choose 'Ser' a definit ale title, when they do not subscribe to the same 'males-only' politics?

But not all knights hold land. There are landed knights and household knights in Martin's work. And there are traditions of non-Andal warrior-types who fulfill the same function, such as among the First Men-descended Northerners. They don't call them knights.

The question asked was what would the Dornish call a female knight - not a female warrior of a Dornish household. There are those aplenty, and they don't need titles.

And honestly, if you're trying to convince me that a (relatively) egalitarian society would not use a "male only" title like "Ser" for their female knights, let me turn it on its nose and ask this: why would you automatically assume that they'd associate the title of "ser" with only men? Perhaps that's just what knights are called, and it's just that all Andal knights have been men.

At the end of the day, we don't really know. Martin hasn't commented on it, and that's pretty much the end-all, be-all of the authority. And he hasn't commented on such a precedent.

[Aran MacFiona]

How is Brienne addresses in the books ? I don't remember her being addressed with "ser". But I remember her being addressed as the lady of Tarth. I think it was because of he being the heir of her father the lord of Tarth.
Since she is the only example of a female knight, thought from the Stormland and not Dorne, she could be taken as ggod example on how to address a female knight.

[LordValorna]

Brienne is not anointed knight or gain the title by another knight, so she is just a lady with warrior skills. It's because that skills she becomes a rainbow knight. Ok she acts like a knight, but with no title. It's only a lady by law.

[Kival]

Brienne is not anointed knight or gain the title by another knight, so she is just a lady with warrior skills. It's because that skills she becomes a rainbow knight. Ok she acts like a knight, but with no title. It's only a lady by law.

Ya. And I really don't think the faith would allow a women to become a knight at all. All female knights will be noble or not noble non-knighted warriors I think.

[DaimosofRedstone]

@carriker:
I never said it was compelling argument.


@Kival:
Does the faith have a word in that?
As far as i know, I, a knight, can tip you on each shoulder with a blade, slap you in the face and tell you to be nice to the weak and the widows, and then... Arise, Ser Kival.

[Carriker]

@Kival:
Does the faith have a word in that?
As far as i know, I, a knight, can tip you on each shoulder with a blade, slap you in the face and tell you to be nice to the weak and the widows, and then... Arise, Ser Kival.

Well, we know that the Faith of the Seven is pretty sexist, by our standards. Male and female roles are pretty solidly illustrated in the faces of six of the Seven, for instance, and in the treatment that women like Brienne receive from the Southrons.

Incidentally, I would absolutely love for Brienne to meet Maege Mormont. I can't help but think that Brienne would have done so much better if she'd been born in the North; the First Men seem perfectly content with Maege not only being a capable fighter and raising her daughters to be so, but taking lovers outside of wedlock to have those daughters, and even leading her House in the wake of Jorah's lawbreaking.

[Zorbeltuss]

She'd fare well in Dorne, too, I imagine, especially in Salty Dorne.

As for the overall knight scheme, that's very much an Andal thing, and the female egalitarian part is very much a Rhoynar thing. In truth, "landed knight" isn't exactly a position in and of itself, in Andal Tradition "The Knight of the Green Valley" is always a knight because the hereditary seat is not held by a woman, and even if the heir is a fat "useless" craven like Sam, he'd still be knighted because that's just the way of things. The hereditary rank would be "master of the green valley", doesn't have the same kind of ring to it, does it? At least not in Andal ears, the northerners doesn't seem to care.

In Rhoynish influenced Dorne, I don't think they care so much either. Certainly, when you can't be addressed as Lord, Knight sounds nicer than Master, and there's reasonable to suspect that there's Andal traditions still around, even at Sunspear. In the north, it looks like Eddara Tallhart has the title "Lady of Torrhen's Square", though it looks like she is styled as "Lady Eddara" that would be a courtesy address, or so it appears.

[DaimosofRedstone]

@Kival:
Does the faith have a word in that?
As far as i know, I, a knight, can tip you on each shoulder with a blade, slap you in the face and tell you to be nice to the weak and the widows, and then... Arise, Ser Kival.

Well, we know that the Faith of the Seven is pretty sexist, by our standards. Male and female roles are pretty solidly illustrated in the faces of six of the Seven, for instance, and in the treatment that women like Brienne receive from the Southrons.

Incidentally, I would absolutely love for Brienne to meet Maege Mormont. I can't help but think that Brienne would have done so much better if she'd been born in the North; the First Men seem perfectly content with Maege not only being a capable fighter and raising her daughters to be so, but taking lovers outside of wedlock to have those daughters, and even leading her House in the wake of Jorah's lawbreaking.

Not really what i meant.
If i, Ser Daimos of Redstone, first of the name, heir to Redstone Castle and the Needle, where to bestow knightly honors upon a warrior woman, maybe out of gratitude, a life debt, anything aslong as i am not mentally impaired, WHAT could the faith do?
Obviously they could frown and cuss and tell me about how i sullied all knights, exact pressure on me, make sure my peers loath to spend time with me, etc.
But as far as i know a knighthood is not something that can be annulled or revoked. Even if you lose all your titles, you are still a knight, and even if you are potboy son-of-a-bitch (literally) from Flea Bottom, you can still be knighted (if you are extremly lucky, but still).
What i am getting at is that neither is the knigthood restricted to one gender (most likely because it never accured to anyone that could be necessary) nor is it limited by social status.
So what could the faith do?
I maybe did something extremly distasteful, but i doubt it is strictly illegal.

[Gurkhal]

@Kival:
Does the faith have a word in that?
As far as i know, I, a knight, can tip you on each shoulder with a blade, slap you in the face and tell you to be nice to the weak and the widows, and then... Arise, Ser Kival.

Well, we know that the Faith of the Seven is pretty sexist, by our standards. Male and female roles are pretty solidly illustrated in the faces of six of the Seven, for instance, and in the treatment that women like Brienne receive from the Southrons.

Incidentally, I would absolutely love for Brienne to meet Maege Mormont. I can't help but think that Brienne would have done so much better if she'd been born in the North; the First Men seem perfectly content with Maege not only being a capable fighter and raising her daughters to be so, but taking lovers outside of wedlock to have those daughters, and even leading her House in the wake of Jorah's lawbreaking.

Not really what i meant.
If i, Ser Daimos of Redstone, first of the name, heir to Redstone Castle and the Needle, where to bestow knightly honors upon a warrior woman, maybe out of gratitude, a life debt, anything aslong as i am not mentally impaired, WHAT could the faith do?
Obviously they could frown and cuss and tell me about how i sullied all knights, exact pressure on me, make sure my peers loath to spend time with me, etc.
But as far as i know a knighthood is not something that can be annulled or revoked. Even if you lose all your titles, you are still a knight, and even if you are potboy son-of-a-bitch (literally) from Flea Bottom, you can still be knighted (if you are extremly lucky, but still).
What i am getting at is that neither is the knigthood restricted to one gender (most likely because it never accured to anyone that could be necessary) nor is it limited by social status.
So what could the faith do?
I maybe did something extremly distasteful, but i doubt it is strictly illegal.

I kind of agree with this. I think that you'd be considered a bit eccentric and a bit odd, but I don't think there would be any extreme reactions to it, as long as we arn't talking about making lots of female knights in which case I think that more than just the Faith would react in a negative way.

[Fergiejr]

@Kival:
Does the faith have a word in that?
As far as i know, I, a knight, can tip you on each shoulder with a blade, slap you in the face and tell you to be nice to the weak and the widows, and then... Arise, Ser Kival.

Well, we know that the Faith of the Seven is pretty sexist, by our standards. Male and female roles are pretty solidly illustrated in the faces of six of the Seven, for instance, and in the treatment that women like Brienne receive from the Southrons.

Incidentally, I would absolutely love for Brienne to meet Maege Mormont. I can't help but think that Brienne would have done so much better if she'd been born in the North; the First Men seem perfectly content with Maege not only being a capable fighter and raising her daughters to be so, but taking lovers outside of wedlock to have those daughters, and even leading her House in the wake of Jorah's lawbreaking.

Not really what i meant.
If i, Ser Daimos of Redstone, first of the name, heir to Redstone Castle and the Needle, where to bestow knightly honors upon a warrior woman, maybe out of gratitude, a life debt, anything aslong as i am not mentally impaired, WHAT could the faith do?
Obviously they could frown and cuss and tell me about how i sullied all knights, exact pressure on me, make sure my peers loath to spend time with me, etc.
But as far as i know a knighthood is not something that can be annulled or revoked. Even if you lose all your titles, you are still a knight, and even if you are potboy son-of-a-bitch (literally) from Flea Bottom, you can still be knighted (if you are extremly lucky, but still).
What i am getting at is that neither is the knigthood restricted to one gender (most likely because it never accured to anyone that could be necessary) nor is it limited by social status.
So what could the faith do?
I maybe did something extremly distasteful, but i doubt it is strictly illegal.

Isnt this pretty much what Renly did? by making her part of his "Kingsguard / Rainbowguard"

When the Hound was placed into the kingsguard he refused to be called "ser" hating the term and what its supposed to mean but rarely upheld.... but some people still slipped up and called him "ser"

More than likely becoming a part of the kingsguard would make one a knight, even if they didnt want to be

Thinking the same would happen when Renly placed people into the Rainbowguard

But everyone still called her Lady of Tarth, I dont think a female knight would be titled ser, but still Lady.

Then again, maybe because she was a heir to a house, even if she was a knight, they would use the higher term, "Lady of Tarth" much like any Lord or King....you say Your Grace, even though Robert was still a knight

[Eisen]

Well, we know that the Faith of the Seven is pretty sexist, by our standards. Male and female roles are pretty solidly illustrated in the faces of six of the Seven, for instance, and in the treatment that women like Brienne receive from the Southrons.

Short anwer I'd likely go with Ser. Possibly Lady in a pinch.

I'm not so sure the Faith is all that sexist. To my understanding a septa is more or less equal to a septon. The concept of an ordained female preist is very progressive compared to any real world religions of the time. I don't know if any of the leadership (the 'most holy'?) included women or not, but I don't think they'd have a problem anointing a female dornish knight.

[Carriker]

Isnt this pretty much what Renly did? by making her part of his "Kingsguard / Rainbowguard"

He did make her part of his guard, yes, but did not knight her. No one conferred knighthood on her, something she is quick to point out nearly every time someone tries to call her one.

When the Hound was placed into the kingsguard he refused to be called "ser" hating the term and what its supposed to mean but rarely upheld.... but some people still slipped up and called him "ser"
More than likely becoming a part of the kingsguard would make one a knight, even if they didnt want to be

The Hound hated the institution of knighthood. He was explicitly not made a knight, because he refused to be. It's also why he was so adamant about correcting people who tried to "ser" him. [/quote]
Knighting is a specific cultural, ritual institution. In both cases, you have people operating *as* knights, without being knights.

[Carriker]

I'm not so sure the Faith is all that sexist. To my understanding a septa is more or less equal to a septon. The concept of an ordained female preist is very progressive compared to any real world religions of the time. I don't know if any of the leadership (the 'most holy'?) included women or not, but I don't think they'd have a problem anointing a female dornish knight.

Septas are the equivalent of nuns - they don't hold any ritual function, liturgical power or decision-making in the church. They really aren't equal.

[Paedrig]

I do not see it so harsh as you stat it out. Could you please tell me where you get this information concerning less prominent role of Septas in comparassing to Septons?
In the Core Rule Book and in the Campaign Guide Septas and septons are treated as equal.
There might be sexism in the higher ranks of the faith given the fact that I did only know of male High Septons etc. (if i did not have overread something). But certainly a sept could be commanded by a septa as easily as by a septon...

[Carriker]

But certainly a sept could be commanded by a septa as easily as by a septon...

We've never seen any indication of that, at all. Even the tiny sept in Winterfell had a septon; Septa Mordane was part of the household to act as a governess for the girls. There's been zero indication of liturgical or ordinational female roles in the Faith of the Seven in the series. Every time a septa shows up, she is basically a nun analogue, not a priestess.

Yes, they are given equivalent mechanical Status, just as many Abbesses in history were held in tremendous regard by virtue of their role. But in terms of governance in the church, there's no indication of a woman holding actual governing power within its ranks.

Don't get me wrong - I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I'm a fan of priestess-types myself, narratively speaking, but that's not something intrinsic in the Faith.