Military power and banner houses

[HelgiBergmann]

Hey, we are kind of confused about the rules for Power for houses.

The table on page 97 seems to contradict the text on page 104. We feel that the table seems to make most sense, as it describes noble houses having more banner houses as their power increases, as well as a larger army. The army of a house and its banner houses seem to be recognized as two separate benefits of power. So as a house's power grows, according to the table, it seems to raise a larger army, as well as attracting more banner houses. A Power score of 41-50, for instance, indicated that the noble house has attracted several banner houses, and a power score of 51-60 that the house has numerous banner houses.

The power rules don't seem to be able to replicate this. The first banner house costs 20 power, then 10 for the next one, and then 5 for each subsequent one. This means that in order to have, say, 10 banner houses, which is not that much for a powerful great house, you'd need 70 power, which according to the table on page 97 means that you have all the armies of Westeros at your disposal. This makes no sense. We feel that, as our game is all about the players' noble houses (each player controls a single noble house) trying to become great powers in Westeros, the rules should be able to reflect that.

The power rules also say that if the King invests 70 power into trained infantry units, then his army would be 10 units, all in all, 1000 men, and he would then have no banner houses.

Our solution to this problem is to go by the table, meaning that a noble house has the power indicated by its power score available to invest in military units, and then gets "free" banner houses according to the table. So a house with a Power score of, say, 35 would have 2 banner houses, while a house with 47 would get several (maybe 5-6) and so on, and both of these houses would get to invest all of their power into personal armies.

We feel that this more accurately represents the world of the novels where for instance Robb Stark can raise 20,000 men in the North, and also have a sizable personal army and garrison at Winterfell.

What do you guys think?

By the way, here is the table we are referring to:

Power

0
Powerless, you have no troops, no soldiers,
and none loyal to your family.

1–10
Personal guard only, with one or two sworn swords
and a cadre of smallfolk warriors at most.

11–20
Small force of soldiers largely made up of smallfolk.

21–30
A modest force of soldiers, including some trained
troops and at least one banner house.

31–40
A trained force of soldiers, including cavalry and possibly ships. You have the service of at least two banner houses.

41–50
A large force of diverse, trained, and competent soldiers. You probably also have the services of a small navy as well. Several banner houses are sworn to you.

51–60
You can muster a huge force of soldiers, drawn from your lands and those from your numerous banner houses.

61–70
You have the strength of most
of the Seven Kingdoms behind you.

[DaimosofRedstone]

The power rules don't seem to be able to replicate this. The first banner house costs 20 power, then 10 for the next one, and then 5 for each subsequent one. This means that in order to have, say, 10 banner houses, which is not that much for a powerful great house, you'd need 70 power, which according to the table on page 97 means that you have all the armies of Westeros at your disposal. This makes no sense. We feel that, as our game is all about the players' noble houses (each player controls a single noble house) trying to become great powers in Westeros, the rules should be able to reflect that.

First, the tables are sh*t. For Power, for Land, for Defense, for Wealth, for Population and i would be surpirsed if the other are any good.
To the second thing: Bannerhousees can have bannerhouse, too.

Our solution to this problem is to go by the table, meaning that a noble house has the power indicated by its power score available to invest in military units, and then gets "free" banner houses according to the table. So a house with a Power score of, say, 35 would have 2 banner houses, while a house with 47 would get several (maybe 5-6) and so on, and both of these houses would get to invest all of their power into personal armies.

Would be to many units for me. The strategy game is not exactly fast as is right now, but with 10 units for each side it devolves to a crushing match and not a fight. Ia m actually not sure if you could even command that many units.

[Zorbeltuss]

Ignore the tables. Seriously. They are capped, while resources are not capped.

With the exception of the influence->status of lord connection when you push into 50+ territory, the holdings system works very well to balance out a house on the scale that most PC houses operate.

In my mind, a banner house is basically a landed knight in your service, and technically, you're lord over the land, but it's your vassal that effectively rules there, but his troops will join your army when you go to war.

I may be wrong, but the norm seems to be that noble houses (where the head gets to call himself Lord, and has right to pit and gallows) are sworn to the Great House of their region. Way I see it, those do not count as bannermen in game technical terms.

[Kival]

I may be wrong, but the norm seems to be that noble houses (where the head gets to call himself Lord, and has right to pit and gallows) are sworn to the Great House of their region. Way I see it, those do not count as bannermen in game technical terms.

That's mostly true but their are some Lords who are so mighty to have other lords under them; the prime example is Manderly who has "dozens of petty lords" under him.

[nakraal]

Well the Warden of one of the Kingdoms (a great house) should have all and only the major houses as bannermen. The major houses should have the minor houses divided to them and the minor should have the landed to them (of course the landed houses are too numerous to be included tin the campaign guide). Thus when the Warden gives a call to arms he raises every single house in his realm.

Its like medieval Europe where the Archduke calls his Dukes to arms, who call their counts who call their barons, but the archduke cannot call a count who is not his immediate vassal.
I got that cleared out much by playing Crusader Knights II.

So House Tully only need to spend 35 points in having the 3 major houses as bannermen.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Well the Warden of one of the Kingdoms (a great house) should have all and only the major houses as bannermen. The major houses should have the minor houses divided to them and the minor should have the landed to them (of course the landed houses are too numerous to be included tin the campaign guide). Thus when the Warden gives a call to arms he raises every single house in his realm.

Its like medieval Europe where the Archduke calls his Dukes to arms, who call their counts who call their barons, but the archduke cannot call a count who is not his immediate vassal.
I got that cleared out much by playing Crusader Knights II.

So House Tully only need to spend 35 points in having the 3 major houses as bannermen.

Well things are not always that straight forward.
There is for example Imperial immediacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_immediacy.
Meaning that the biggest lord still has some small fries sworn to him.
And yes, the tables cannot reflect that. Thats why they are worthless.
But then the Houses you play are medium fries at best.

[Iron Legs]

I like Helgi solution.

Me and my players have built some Houses, and nobody wanted banner houses: they prefeared military units.

Perhaps a solution is allow to invest influence points in buying banner houses.

[Zorbeltuss]

I think the general idea is that banner houses marches to war with you whenever you march to war.

[coldwind]

I think the general idea is that banner houses marches to war with you whenever you march to war.

If you've treated them well, then yes, they should march behind you.

[shadowninja]

Me and my players have built some Houses, and nobody wanted banner houses: they prefeared military units.
Perhaps a solution is allow to invest influence points in buying banner houses.

I my games I use this solution, Power represents direct military forces under House's control, Influence represents how many vassals (bannerman, landed knight families and other social structures) sworned vows to the House. To me, Influence used to "buy" Heirs is very strange, but I still using Influence to represents the Lord's Status and all other characters Status is based in this value.