Great Houses Stats

[dolfanar]

Hi,

was thinking of running a game based on the Great Houses themselves (Stark, Lannister, etc...). Before using the base rules to extrapolate game stats, was wondering if the stats been posted by official/unofficial sources?

[Gurkhal]

I personally haven't seen any write up but be ready that these guys will have ALOT of resources and so will crush almost any enemy or opponent who isn't another Great House like a bug.

[Lord Ben]

Not always, numerous Great Houses have issues with smaller ones in the books. Their positions mostly earned generations ago and prone to being toppled with a few bad turns of events.

[DaimosofRedstone]

I would make them 10-20 points higher than 'normal' in all points with a shitload of banner houses.

[Zorbeltuss]

IMO, the house creations rules works when creating landed/minor houses but not if you want to look at the major houses.

The design flaw lies in starting out with a 0 to 70 scale, where 10 is like a petty landed knight and 70 is the King (0 would be a peasant family, I guess). I see no problems so far, but when resources (which is measured on the same scale) buys holdings that make power/prestige/whatever increase linearly across the line, you end up with the King having seven times the strength

It works well enough as long as you are below 50 influence, things gets muddy with Status 6 Lords that supposedly should be major ones, when Florents, Fossoways and Freys have thousands of men each...while a PC house of 50'ish resources will struggle to have more than 500.

My solution is to keep the 0-70 measurement (with the King being sort of not directly fitting in, as he's essentially depending on his Lord Paramounts to rally to his cause when Power is needed to be exercised.), but view it as a quadratic scale. Resource=Rank*Rank/10. Where "Rank" is the amount of Defense, Land and so on that you have on the 0-70 scale, while Resource is the number of points you may spend on holdings.

When doing this, you should increase the cost of settlements and fortifications correspondingly, because else the Starks can have 10 Winterfells, and the Hightowers 7 Oldtowns. Hamlet/Tower still would cost 10, but Keep/Small Town would now be 40. 90, 160 and 250 for the higher levels. Might want to consider double those costs actually.

For Influence, you may want to say Rank=Resource.

So a Great House, Status 7, will have something like 60-70 in everything on average. Which means it has 360 to 490 resources in everything.

That's the approach I'd be taking, although doing it this way probably requires a rehaul of everything if it's intended to work for the kind of houses you get when rolling on the tables.

My advice is to figure out what holdings said Great House should have and don't care about how many resources it would then need to have.

[Gurkhal]

Not always, numerous Great Houses have issues with smaller ones in the books. Their positions mostly earned generations ago and prone to being toppled with a few bad turns of events.

In a way you are correct but the Lord Paramount still have the power to crush any single one of his bannermen, with the possible exception of the Tyrell-Hightower relation, with relatively ease.

[coldwind]

Crush? I don't know about that. The only crushing we've any real knowledge of is Tywin taking out the Reynes and Tarbecks, but while they are two admittedly powerful houses, we don't know what kind of help (if any) Tywin needed to get it done.

All other house extinctions we know of were due to prolonged bad luck, lack of heirs, or conquest and war.

[Zorbeltuss]

It depends. I'm not sure House Tully could pull it off against the Freys without most of the riverlands houses helping them.

Baratheon, Martell, Stark, Arryn and Lannister probably can do it single-handedly, them being direct heirs of pre-Dragons royal houses. Highgarden? Not unlikely.

Though consider the situation:
Tywin did it, yes. But could he do it unless the Reyne's and Tarbecks had not commited blatant treason?

I think it requires that the other houses are okay with it, at the least.

We know that Lannister forces (we do not know if the banners were called, or if only included whatever forces sworn to Casterly Rock) defeated Reyne and Tarbeck forces. And presumably, Tywin went with the plow the fields with salt solution afterwards. Given that we know that Tywin is a strong field commander, it's plausible that he could have done it without involving other houses. As long as the Lannisters could field more men than Castamere and Tarbeck.

[Lord Ben]

Not always, numerous Great Houses have issues with smaller ones in the books. Their positions mostly earned generations ago and prone to being toppled with a few bad turns of events.

In a way you are correct but the Lord Paramount still have the power to crush any single one of his bannermen, with the possible exception of the Tyrell-Hightower relation, with relatively ease.

Robb Stark had 20,000 men standing outside the Twins and had to arrange a marriage instead of crushing him. Hoster Tully couldn't have done anything because he was busy elsewhere.

Great Houses have most of their power wrapped up in their bannermen. Stark/Bolton is probably a very even match if Stark didn't have allies or he lost their influence.

[Kajani]

The Twin-example is perhaps not the best one. When it happened, his Tully-allies were under pressure from the Lannisters (if I remembered right), and he was in need to march south in hurry to help his father and face the Lannister-army. Surely he could crush the Twins, but not without enough time (weather was not good, am I right?) which he had not. To actually STORM the Twins would surely cost him most of his army. This mean not, that he would not able to crush the Freys in a normal conflict by laying siege on the twins, destoying their bannerhouses etc. But in this situation he could not waste a singe day or man. So he decided to marry.

[Lord Ben]

Partly that but when his bannermen took a look at the Castle they knew they couldn't storm it if they needed to, and a siege would require a few hundred mile round trip plus splitting up their forces in order to surround on both sides.

My point isn't that the Freys are just as powerful as the Starks. The Frey's have only three things going for them and that's location location location. My point is that there are situations in which a Great House wouldn't be able to crush almost any other non Great like a bug. Enough to run a game with at least if that's your cup of tea. Personally I like the Landed Knights in the service to one of Manderly's bannermen so there are multiple levels between you and big guys but that's not for everyone.

[Zorbeltuss]

As far as we know, Tywin didn't have to bother about anyone else than Castamere and Tarbeck, so it's not implausible that if Ned Stark had to put down a Bolton/Manderly rebellion a year before GoT, he could have wiped both out completely if he wanted.

If the blackfish was in command, Rivverrun probably could do that to the Freys.

If you have to deal with rebellious houses AND a major war...then it gets a bit more complicated.

[Gurkhal]

Well I suppose it is what people put into words but with crush I did not mean to exterminate the House, only that the outcome would've have been a very clear victory for the Great House. There are some exceptions like Hightower and possibly Bolton and Manderly who are so strong so its a question if the Great House could force them on their knees without summoning their Lords Bannermen in addition to whatever petty lords and landed knights who are sworn directly to the Great House.

[Lord Ben]

If everything is going smoothly for the Great House, and their bannermen are loyal, and the small house doesn't have allies, and one of your neighbors isn't looking for an advantage to press, etc etc etc than a Great house would easily crush a small one. But that doesn't make for a game scenario then. But just because you want to make a game where the Great House plays a part doesn't mean there can't be challenges. They just have to be thought out instead of "bandits threaten Winterfell"

[dolfanar]

Having the great houses statted out, in addition to allowing players to play as them, also helps me figure out when a player run house is getting to be near or at the level of the Starks, etc...

I think i'm going to go with the suggestion of assuming something like 60-70 for all ratings for most of the great houses.

[coldwind]

Some things can be figured out more easily than others, if you work backwards from what holdings we know they have.

Stuff like Influence for the Starks needs to be at least 20 (Robb), 10 (Sansa), 10 (Bran), 5 (Arya), 5 (Rickon) - 50, plus whatever extra so the Starks can play on their name.

Other things, if you go take the rulebook at face value, don't work as well. For example, we know the Lannisters have loaned the Iron Throne at least 3,000,000 gold dragons. That's 3000 Wealth alone (assuming the 1000gd:1 Wealth conversion for having over 40 Wealth). Not to mention what they've invested in Maesters, Artisans, Mines, Ports, and all that other stuff.

[Azai]

I am wondering if any of the noble house(Not just the great ones) are stated out unoffically, or officially? Or is this something they might be considering in the Game of Thrones edition of the Campaign guide?

I really would like to know how big of armies each house could realistically field, and even more their banner man. We get an idea from the books, but if I would like to know exactly how man men Bolton could field... Compared to Umbar, Stark, Karstark, etc.

[crowofpyke]

If I recall correctly, the Stark family has had to put the Boltons in their place more than once in their long history.

Even family ties of blood don't mean absolute loyalty, as we have seen with the Karstarks in the last few books. But other houses might be loyal out of some great favor done in the past, such as the Manderly's absolute loyalty to the Starks.

As for could one of the great houses crush a rebellious bannerman, the answer is yes and no. A great house is the way it is because throughout history it has managed to maneuver the halls of power adeptly - both in alliances forged and enemies chosen, and in terms of favors owed, favors gained, charm and intimidation. It is not a simple question to answer.

And... it is because of that tangled web and lack of simplicity that king's throughout history have manipulated their own bannermen, ie- the great houses. A great house's bannermen will likely jump at the chance to help their liege lord crush another bannerman. Why? In addition to the obvious riches to be gained in raiding and looting, there are lands and grants and titles and other possessions to be gained. The less obvious are any perceived slights or debts owed or to be repaid from past history - nothing quite like destroying an old rival house when that war has been sanctioned by your liege lord. Think about that for a moment. As much as the great houses play the Game Of Thrones against each other, so do all their bannermen at the "next level down".

In my own campaign, the player's house has allies and enemies amongst the other houses as at their level. One enemy is an old one, and one they would dearly welcome the chance to wipe from the face of Westeros forever. Another enemy is simply that because that enemy is an serious enemy of one of their allies. And their third enemy house isn't so much a hated enemy, but more of a rival... someone to compete with... they wouldn't save each other, but neither would they go out of their way to cause harm.... I populated my player's region with 12 other houses with which to work - 3 enemies, 3 allies, and the rest all possibilities.... It allows my players to fully engage in The Game Of Thrones. All of it with bannermen at the ready.

[Iron Legs]

Tywin was already Hand of the King when he destroyed the T+R.

[Kival]

Tywin was already Hand of the King when he destroyed the T+R.

What? I don't think so...Where did you get that information? I'm pretty sure the destruction of T+R was Tywins first "deed". The destruction of T+R was around the year 260 AL, Tywin became Hand in 262 AL... so while it might be possible Tywin became hand before, I don#t think it's likely and in my game it's not the case (as my players have a house in the westerlands which came to power because of the T+R-Rebellion I had to clearly define times).

[coldwind]

The fall of House Reyne and Tarbeck was before Tywin becoming the Hand; it was rather likely the event that caused Aerys to take note of the young Lordling (I don't think Tywin's father Tytos was dead by then yet).

My PbP A Reign of Gold is set pretty much just before the House Reyne uprising, so I've done a lot of poking and prying through other people's analyses of the timelines.

[Kival]

The fall of House Reyne and Tarbeck was before Tywin becoming the Hand; it was rather likely the event that caused Aerys to take note of the young Lordling (I don't think Tywin's father Tytos was dead by then yet).

Yep, Tytos lived at the time of the R+T-Rebellion, he actually was the reason for it and only when Tywin decided to take the fate in his hands, things changed.

[NRP]

I think the flaw in the House system is one of description, not of kind. When you're looking at the actual feudal system, a house doesn't actually have a tremendous amount of resources. What they do have is a significant number of banner houses who, in turn, have resources of their own.

The Great Houses of Westeros aren't powerful because they have stats in the 100s. The resources you see in the books aren't actually part of the house themselves. When House Stark calls the banners and summons 20,000 men, you're really looking at dozens of bannermen and their bannerhouses and their bannerhouses and so on. crowofpyke has the right idea - you're looking at a vast web of alliances and power that relies primarily on agreements and arrangements. All it takes is one important bannerman in the link to cut a deal with two others and suddenly you've got a full-fledged rebellion on your hands.

The exception is House Lannister, who does have a Wealth stat that breaks the scale. The House itself is enormous, however, with a number of cadet houses (especially the other one in Lannisport). So when you're talking about the Wealth of House Lannister, you're also including the (astronomical) Wealth of the cadet houses as well.

[Zorbeltuss]

There were still a large number of men directly under Stark command, the garrison left behind at Winterfell was several hundred strong. As was the Dreadfort garrison that Ramsay brought up.

House Florent fielded 2000 men, according to the wiki. And for that, you need a power rating in the 100eds.

[Carriker]

The books aren't ever wholly clear on where a lot of those men come from, though, even if they do attribute them to individual Houses. Even if those troops don't belong to other noble Houses, they could just as easily come from knightly Houses, families of landed knights who hold land for their liege, but do not hold the power of Pit & Gallows. Such houses raise their own troops as well, and contribute them directly to their lords' levies when called. It is easy enough to justify the presence of a handful of such miniature, not-quite-lordly Houses with a House of just about any decent size.