How big are lands?

[aneirin]

I got the narrators kit and the map of westeros, and I was thinking that when my players choose their realm, north, riverlands or Dorne (I will warn them I have more ideas for some places than others) and making where they place themselves on the map dependant upon what they spend their lands on. (i.e., if they choose the North, they wont be able to set in most areas of the RIlls, around Dreadfort or near the coast to the Bay of Ice withut selecting at least one mountains, and to set up deep they will need to take more mountains)

However, I was wondering (as I plan to draw them and other NPC's onto the map), how large exactly is a domain on the map. It says 3 miles, but I have no idea how large a 3 mile square area would appear on the map as it only gives distances in leagues. (it has 100 leagues and a bar next to it for measuring distances)

[DaimosofRedstone]

You would not be able to see it.
Westeros is roughly the Size of South America, The North alone is estimated to be bigger than the continental USA.
A league is 3 miles, by the way.
Most players here have already decided that a domain is (at least) 3*3 miles, for a size of 9 square miles for domain.
which you would still hardly see on the map (IIRC it is hardly a millimeter for a league, so a domain would be a small tiny dot, with 4 domains being a dot thats a little bigger).

[Nirnaeth]

Westeros is roughly the Size of South America, The North alone is estimated to be bigger than the continental USA.

Whaaaaaaaaat.

How do the population/size of the continent even make sense? I'm confused.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Well as far as i know there is no population count, though Kings Landing has half a million or more...
All in all it Westeros would most likely look more like the American Midwest, than todays Europe, small villages and farming communities with a lot of big fat nothing between them.

[Nirnaeth]

I thought I had read something like there were 2 cities in the whole continent, Oldtown and King's Landing, the other being big towns...

[DaimosofRedstone]

I thought I had read something like there were 2 cities in the whole continent, Oldtown and King's Landing, the other being big towns...

Well, Medieval Europe did not have much more. Most 'cities' had between 10000 to 50000 citizens, making them small towns today.

[Nirnaeth]

That's what you could say if you're American.

In Republic of Ireland I live in the 4th biggest city of the country, Galway, it's barely 80000 souls. "Only other city" sounded a lot smaller to me, say, 100k tops? It was also more consistent with armies under a hundred thousand swords strong...

(notice how the South of Westeros is Ireland upside down, with Galway as King's Landing )

[Totoro]

I thought I had read something like there were 2 cities in the whole continent, Oldtown and King's Landing, the other being big towns...

Actually, it's stated that there are five cities in Westeros: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbor. The rest are only small towns, such as Mole Town or Duskendale.

[DaimosofRedstone]

I thought I had read something like there were 2 cities in the whole continent, Oldtown and King's Landing, the other being big towns...

Actually, it's stated that there are five cities in Westeros: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbor. The rest are only small towns, such as Mole Town or Duskendale.

It is quite a jump from Gulltown or White Harbor to Mole town (practically a hole in the ground with what whores the night watch can supply with work), while Duskendale is not exactly small... it just does not number in the top five.

[Lord Ben]

I find it odd that towns are under land instead of population. And for as rare as they are they really don't do much except give you access to ports and such.

Anyway, I've always felt they were not limited by miles so much as geographic identity or traits or value. A strategic mountain pass might get the mountain and road value and be fairly small but incredibly valuable in the same way that a hill/forest owned by the vale tribes might be fairly large but have relatively little of value within it.

It works easier story wise to do it that way rather than carving out Westeros into a 3x3 mile grid of holdings.

[Kajani]

Perhaps we should say, that several smaller cities are not shown on the map. It is not Martins duty to take care that all communities are mentioned - if you need a twon of smaller size (perhaps 1.000 to 5.000?) I think no one would bash you if you create your own...
Mentioned in the books are mainly the places were things happened, I think we should not say there exist NONE others...

[DaimosofRedstone]

Perhaps we should say, that several smaller cities are not shown on the map.

As are small rivers and streams (the Riverlands are supposed to be criss-crossed by those, but per the map: nada), smaller forests (per the map neither Dorne, nor the Reach, nor the Westerlands would have any suitable wood supply; makes you wonder how they built their fleets), smaller roads (only 4 roads for the whole kingdom? Sure.), etc.
Just look at a map of south America at a scale of 1:10 million (a millimeter for a kilometer) and tell me what is missing.

[nakraal]

http://gameofthrones.net/images/Westero ... steros.jpg

I found out by breaking down the miles bar into leagues that if you edit this map with "paint" a domain would by a
3x3 pixel area (thus a pixel is roughly a square mile)

[crowofpyke]

I thought I had read something like there were 2 cities in the whole continent, Oldtown and King's Landing, the other being big towns...

Actually, it's stated that there are five cities in Westeros: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbor. The rest are only small towns, such as Mole Town or Duskendale.

I think you're forgetting Sunspear.

[coldwind]

Sunspear isn't a city, just a castle. Nearby is Planky Town, which also isn't a city.

[DaimosofRedstone]

There is something called the 'shadow city' in or directly next to Sunspear (A feast for crows, p. 185ff).

[coldwind]

Many big castles have communities built up around them - Winter Town around Winterfell - but they're not truly cities.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Well, chapter 2, Feast for crows seems to indicate otherwise. Though its all in what you read into it.

[coldwind]

Huh... Did some more reading, and retract my claim. There do seem to be more references to Sunspear as a city rather than just a castle with a built-up town.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Huh... Did some more reading, and retract my claim. There do seem to be more references to Sunspear as a city rather than just a castle with a built-up town.

But then your claim could have merit as in so far as it more of a town with supersized service sector to cater to the castle, the harbor and the caravans.

[coldwind]

The most common description of its size (which may all come from the same source), is that Sunspear is no more than a town when compared to the Oldtown, Lannisport, Free Cities, etc... but it is the closest thing to a true city that the Dornish have.

[DaimosofRedstone]

The most common description of its size (which may all come from the same source), is that Sunspear is no more than a town when compared to the Oldtown, Lannisport, Free Cities, etc... but it is the closest thing to a true city that the Dornish have.

Hard to tell since all narrators we have are unreliable and we have no mentioning of actual population numbers, so its hard to tell, but for the Dornish it is definitely a city and a big one at that.

[coldwind]

The most common description of its size (which may all come from the same source), is that Sunspear is no more than a town when compared to the Oldtown, Lannisport, Free Cities, etc... but it is the closest thing to a true city that the Dornish have.

Hard to tell since all narrators we have are unreliable and we have no mentioning of actual population numbers, so its hard to tell, but for the Dornish it is definitely a city and a big one at that.

To be clear, when I said "most common", I meant in various websites and the like that talk about the ASoIaF setting, but none really mentioned there sources, so I don't know if they were just pulling from the books, or something like So Spake Martin during one of his Q&As.

[Totoro]

Actually, Mr Martin himself seems to have confirmed this:

There are five cities in Westeros: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown, and White Harbor.

Link

[Lord Ben]

I like to follow the Westeros forum as well as this and remember reading something where GRRM said if he comes up with details on a place that isn't in the book he always tries to add it to the book so he tries to avoid detailing the world much. IE, there are 5 cities because the books only need 5 cities not because of any particular IC reason.