Playing on The Reach

[Totoro]

So, a group of players has decided to use The Reach as their region. As I started to think about the campaign, I realized one important thing: The Reach is kind of a land of mystery. Why? It is a region that doesn't appear much in the books (Oldtown has two chapters, but that is it), and practically no POV Characters are from there (with the exception of the fleeting Mr Oakheart).

Yes, we all know its a region of rich lands and famous wines, and it contains probably more Houses than any other region (based on the fact that the Tyrells hve the largest army); but I feel there is a certain lack of information compared to the other regions.

So, how many of you have played in this region? Any ideas for how to make the Region unique, besides constantly described how nice the grass is?

Also, how do you think The Reach would stand just after Robert's Rebellion? They were on the losing side, and what consequences do you think would have been left?

[coldwind]

The War of the Usurper barely touched the Reach (and given that they sided against Robert - an usurper and a Stormlander - they likely still call it that, except in formal company). The was one major battle, at Ashford, and it was won by the Reach (Lord Randyll's van), even if it wasn't a resounding victory. We can probably surmise a few skirmishes along the Dornish Marches, but with Caron and Dondarrion being so exposed to both the Reach and Dorne, probably nothing significant.

However, politically, they probably suffered. Loras Tyrell was sent to foster at Storm's End, and you can well imagine many other Houses had to send off children as wards, hostages, and the like.

As for the land itself, rolling green hills, wild flower fields, and farms of golden wheat. There are enough forests for hunting, but probably not huge logging operations, so most buildings are stone or thatch. Not to the same level as the Riverlands, but I see many lazily meander streams and creeks. I also see most terrain features - at least those near hamlets or castles - as being well-groomed, even squared off. Reachers seem obsessed with perfection, and so would seek to make sure their lands look better than anything comparable.

[devilsgrin]

from my understanding, the Reach is the iconic Chivalrous, Feudal Kingdom we know from virtually every form of fantasy fiction. Wide sweeping meadows, well tended forests, as Coldwind says, lazily meandering rivers and streams. a bucolic paradise... at least on the surface. Considering the size of the Reach, the lord's domains are small compared to others, and there are A LOT of them. More people in the Reach than the rest of Westeros combined. Greed and avarice would we rife in the Reach, with plotting and little wars breaking out all the time. The Florents hate the Tyrells and would do anything to take over Highgarden, or even weaken Tyrell power. The other major houses would do anything for more power, but at the expense of other Houses, not the Tyrells. Hightower and Redwyne are massively powerful houses, the Redwynes have little trouble with ironmen, since their fleet is the biggest in Westeros beside that of the Iron Isles. And the Hightowers rule the oldest city in Westeros, second only in size to King's Landing, but far grander, more refined, and having had millennia to perfect its maintenence (and not merely 300 years like KL) a juicy target for intrigues... those involving the Maesters in particular.

Post War of the Usurper... Mace Tyrell was forced to bend the knee, and send Loras to Storm's End. However, we see very little in the way of other retalliation. The Reach is the most powerful single realm in Westeros, and the reason - FOOD. the Westerlands may have all the gold the Lannisters could need, but you can't feed a man gold. Robert had no choice but to extend pardons to the Tyrells and their bannermen. Since from end to end and side to side, The Reach is a food growing paradise.

[Zorbeltuss]

Plus, the reach had a mostly intact army, so they had good cards on their hands. Add their strength to whatever was left of Dornish/loyalist forces and they might decide to marry Arianne to Viserys and one of Mace's kids to Dany.

[Kival]

Plus, the reach had a mostly intact army, so they had good cards on their hands. Add their strength to whatever was left of Dornish/loyalist forces and they might decide to marry Arianne to Viserys and one of Mace's kids to Dany.

I doubt that. Dorne and the Reach have a long tradition of emnity; I don't think they would ever make a strong alliance.

[Mat]

I agree with all the comment above and i am currently managing a campaign in The Reach, in particular the focus in on Oldtown and the surrounding lands. I am not playing during the Usurper era but during the Blackfyre rebellion (still they have to rebel). If you look some posts back you can find the House Sheet of House Hightower. It lacks names and specific things but i think it is usable.

[Iron Legs]

Also remember the Shield Islands protect the Reach from the Ironborn pirates.

Also you can play a campaign during other eras. here some ideas:

1- The guerrilla war between the Targaryen and the Militant Faith (the Poor Brothers and the Star Knights, I think).
2- The fall of House Gardener. The efforts of the Tyrells to became lords of Highgarden, fighting Florents and Tarlys.
3- The conquest of Dorne, where I suppose the Reach provided the most of the army of the Young Dragon.
4- The Marches are a dangerous place, with the stormlanders, the reachers and the dornishmen fighting anytime. Even the "pacifistic" Doran Martell believed some castles there were his, and was glad to accept them from Tyrion Lannister, Hand of King Jeoffrey.
5- Oldtown and his Maesters, intriguing over science and power in the Citadel.
6- A man pretending he is a descendent of House Gardener has raised a mutiny among the peasantry. House Tyrell is in disarray, the Faith discretly helps the imposter, and House Florent fights him!

Talking about the Florents, I think during the Usurper War, it's very possible they helped Robert somehow. Perhaps remaining neutral. PErhaps allowing him to flee after battle of AShford. Perhaps delaying the Tyrell's army when they were advancing toward Storm's End. Anywhere, when the war ended, they were rewarded: Stannis Baratheon, suposed heir of Robert, married Selysse Florent. Of course, Stannis only became LOrd of Dragonstone in the new order, so t hhe Florents were somehow disapointed.

I think that's the reason Stannis married a Florent, when there were many others noble lady avaliable in the Reach (like Mace Tyrell's sisters).

[Totoro]

If you look some posts back you can find the House Sheet of House Hightower. It lacks names and specific things but i think it is usable.

Yes, I have found that and I'm using it. Great work!

[Totoro]

5- Oldtown and his Maesters, intriguing over science and power in the Citadel.

Thanks for all the great ideas! I'm actually using this for the first session: the adventure involves the PCs travelling to The Citadel to find their Maester. The Maester went there a year before to gain a new link for his chain but disappeared some months later. This coincides with the return of the mysterious Archmaester Marwyn from his travels...


I'm planning the adventure as a one-shot, so I'll see if I have the time to set it to paper and post it here, if anybody is interested.

Regards!

[Mat]

Be free to post here you ideas of adventure and we try to help you for what we can!

As i said I am running a campaign at Oldtown also involving maester scheming..so just share and ask!^^

[Totoro]

Be free to post here you ideas of adventure and we try to help you for what we can!

I'm running the adventure during the year 284. It begins with the PCs arriving to Oldtown in search of their Maester. Said maester, called Maester Gaffin, traveled to Oldtown almost a year ago to gain a new link, but after a few months he disappeared. The truth is that he spent only a month studying for his new link, for it was then that Archmaester Marwyn returned to the Citadel after his travels through Essos. Gaffin became close to Marwyn and admired him, so he left his studies on Lineages to study under the tutelage of Marwyn. A few months later, a Braavosi ship arrived, looking for a book that Marwyn obtained during his travels. Marwyn then instructed Gaffin to leave the Citadel with the book until the Braavosi left. Gaffin would have left for his House, if he had not encountered a problem: while waiting for a night on the Quill and Tankard before leaving, he ran into a member of his House of birth. Said man, a Targaryen loyalist Knight that escaped after refusing Robert's pardon, panicked after being recognized and captured Gaffin. He kept Gaffin as a prisoner inside an abandoned house and sold the book in order as to buy passage out of Westeros.

So, when the PCs arrive, two factions want the book: the Braavosi and Marwyn. The Archmaesters are also interested in the book, as they've learned of its existence via a traitor inside Marwyn's house, and seek to destroy it. The Knight knows where Gaffin is, but seeks to leave Westeros ASAP. Lastly, the book is in possession of a Noble seeking to use it as a gift to gain the favor, and perhaps more than that, of Malora Hightower

I just finished planning it, so it may have some issues to fix yet. Any comments will be appreciated.

[crowofpyke]

There isn't a ton of description about the region in the books, at least not compared to the others. But we can glean some knowledge and extrapolate possibilities. We know that the Knight of Flowers is from the Reach, as are the Tyrells. Well, they all have lots of money, not like the Lannisters but pretty damned close from what I recall in the books. They value fancy dress and intrigue a lot. They know and like all manner of different foods, including excellent wines. The lands are described as very fertile.

My history degree in medieval social-economics tells me that if you live in a region like that life is not only good, but that everything about it is remarkably better than anywhere else... assuming that there is a central power strong enough and feared enough to maintain control. If there is not a central power, such as House Tyrell, the region would quickly degenerate into a massive number of tiny wars and squabbling - all due to greed over the amount of resources up for grabs. Think on that for a moment: House Tyrell is so powerful and so *feared* that they can maintain control over such a vast, wealthy region. Wow. If your campaign is set in the Reach: Do.Not.Mess.With.House.Tyrell. What else does such a rich region tell us? The rate of infant mortality is likely MUCH lower here than in other regions. There is less fear about children dying before the age of 10. The peasants are well fed. A wine maker, an inn keeper, or even a wool maker may be more wealthy than some minor lords from the region, and definitely so compared to such lords from other less wealthy regions. The availability of "medical care" is likely better in this region than in others, due to the proximity to Old Town and to the richness of the region. And the arts... the arts in such a region likely flourish, if under a strong central power as noted above. For an example of the *luxury of time* people have in this region look no further than the armor of the Knight of Flowers. This is due to the specialization of economic roles that comes with increased population and the movement of peasants to towns and cities. When you get specialization of economic roles (such as a silversmith), you get more time for things like the arts. Population also effects House Tyrell - they can draw such a vast army not only because of their wealth, but because the Reach is so populous.

When I picture the Reach in my mind's eye I see not only the green fields and hills and huge vineyards, but houses like those build in the Alsace-Lorane region between France and Germany: White, with the brown cross-beams... well insulated, well maintained, well made. And I see a people who are in remarkably good health and shape compared to other regions. But... all that goes to crap in a hand basket with out a strong central power striking fear into those who might pick a fight over some coveted resource or another....

Hope this helps.

[Totoro]

There isn't a ton of description about the region in the books, at least not compared to the others. But we can glean some knowledge and extrapolate possibilities. We know that the Knight of Flowers is from the Reach, as are the Tyrells. Well, they all have lots of money, not like the Lannisters but pretty damned close from what I recall in the books. They value fancy dress and intrigue a lot. They know and like all manner of different foods, including excellent wines. The lands are described as very fertile.

My history degree in medieval social-economics tells me that if you live in a region like that life is not only good, but that everything about it is remarkably better than anywhere else... assuming that there is a central power strong enough and feared enough to maintain control. If there is not a central power, such as House Tyrell, the region would quickly degenerate into a massive number of tiny wars and squabbling - all due to greed over the amount of resources up for grabs. Think on that for a moment: House Tyrell is so powerful and so *feared* that they can maintain control over such a vast, wealthy region. Wow. If your campaign is set in the Reach: Do.Not.Mess.With.House.Tyrell. What else does such a rich region tell us? The rate of infant mortality is likely MUCH lower here than in other regions. There is less fear about children dying before the age of 10. The peasants are well fed. A wine maker, an inn keeper, or even a wool maker may be more wealthy than some minor lords from the region, and definitely so compared to such lords from other less wealthy regions. The availability of "medical care" is likely better in this region than in others, due to the proximity to Old Town and to the richness of the region. And the arts... the arts in such a region likely flourish, if under a strong central power as noted above. For an example of the *luxury of time* people have in this region look no further than the armor of the Knight of Flowers. This is due to the specialization of economic roles that comes with increased population and the movement of peasants to towns and cities. When you get specialization of economic roles (such as a silversmith), you get more time for things like the arts. Population also effects House Tyrell - they can draw such a vast army not only because of their wealth, but because the Reach is so populous.

When I picture the Reach in my mind's eye I see not only the green fields and hills and huge vineyards, but houses like those build in the Alsace-Lorane region between France and Germany: White, with the brown cross-beams... well insulated, well maintained, well made. And I see a people who are in remarkably good health and shape compared to other regions. But... all that goes to crap in a hand basket with out a strong central power striking fear into those who might pick a fight over some coveted resource or another....

Hope this helps.

Wow. Great post, Crowofpyke! I'm running the adventure tonight and I'll be sure to use this information to describe the region. Amazing.

[Nirnaeth]

That was both logical and enlightening. Your description made me think of the Hanseatic League, too, even though such a relationship towards trade would probably fit some of the Free Cities better.

[Kival]

It was a great read, I agree and I can only agree regarding the general historical observations but - there's always a but - I don't see the Tyrells power as very strong. Their claim to the wardenship is not the best:

1. They are not the closest descendants to house. In fact I'd say it's Tyrells allies: The Redwyne and Tarlys which make them powerful. Would they lose their support, houses like House Florent would be more openly in their actions against them.

2. They were loyal to the Tagaryens in the rebellion, their only luck is that no major house of the Reach took Roberts side from the beginning (obviously something, some Florents obviously decided to take this as a hint to make things different this time...

On a side note regarding the luxurious armour of loras, I always thought it to be sponsored by Renly.

[Gurkhal]

Alot of good stuff has been writen above and so I won't repeat all of what's great. The things that I would probably focused on if I ran a game set in the Reach would be the following stuff.

1. The Reach is the heart of chivelry and probably Andal culture and living in the Reach should reflect this. More knights, tourneys, lots of troubadours singing epics of chivlry and courtly love, of which there probably are many hundreds of different songs.

2. An utter lack of any non-Andal cultural influence and probably alot of feelings of cultural supremacy over the First Men, Rhoynar and Ironmen.

3. The memory of House Garnder is probably still very strong and I wouldn't be suprised that it has strong roots in a hagiographic (I hope I used this word right) veneratin for the old Gardeners among the smallfolk, and perhaps among some of the nobles as well. The Tyrells probably see this with very mixed feelings.

4. The Tyrells are mostly viewed as upstarts and pretenders by alot of House, certainly by more than only the Florent who might think they have a better claim to be Lords Paramount although few of them are willing to attract the wrath of the Iron Throne. As I see it the Florents are the loudest bannermen who want Highgarden for themselves but not the only ones. I find it really strange that only the Florents wants to replace the Tyrells of all the powerful Houses with alot of tradition behind them in the Reach.

5. Very rich and populous although I would think that the nobles' grip on the smallfolk is the strongest here than perhaps in any other place in Westeros. If therer is any system of serfs in Westeros its probably in the Reach.

That's what I could think about.

[DaimosofRedstone]

3. The memory of House Garnder is probably still very strong and I wouldn't be suprised that it has strong roots in a hagiographic (I hope I used this word right) veneratin for the old Gardeners among the smallfolk, and perhaps among some of the nobles as well. The Tyrells probably see this with very mixed feelings.

Do you really mean 'hagiographic' as in 'venerating them as saints, holy men, etc.'?
I am not quite sure how that would square with Westerosi religious culture since even Blessed Baelor seems to be more 'good man' than holy man.

I find it really strange that only the Florents wants to replace the Tyrells of all the powerful Houses with alot of tradition behind them in the Reach.

Well you do not make trouble just for the hell of it. Peace is preferable for anybody with an interest in trade... or tax... or any economic venture really.
If the Tyrells do not **** it up and make sure every body has a place at the table few will want to topple them.

Very rich and populous although I would think that the nobles' grip on the smallfolk is the strongest here than perhaps in any other place in Westeros.

I agree.

If therer is any system of serfs in Westeros its probably in the Reach.

Feudal system does not work without serfdom so you will find something like that in every kingdom.

[devilsgrin]

4. The Tyrells are mostly viewed as upstarts and pretenders by alot of House, certainly by more than only the Florent who might think they have a better claim to be Lords Paramount although few of them are willing to attract the wrath of the Iron Throne. As I see it the Florents are the loudest bannermen who want Highgarden for themselves but not the only ones. I find it really strange that only the Florents wants to replace the Tyrells of all the powerful Houses with alot of tradition behind them in the Reach.

I don't see this supported anywhere in the novels at all. Aside from House Florent, the majority of the Reach are loyal bannermen to the Tyrell's.
Moreover, the Florent's might have wanted the throne of Highgarden, but the important factor here, is that House Tyrell is vastly more powerful than any of the other houses in the Reach.

1. They are not the closest descendants to house. In fact I'd say it's Tyrells allies: The Redwyne and Tarlys which make them powerful. Would they lose their support, houses like House Florent would be more openly in their actions against them.

Only the Redwynes and Hightowers have power to come close, but not actually rival the Tyrell house. House Tarly is also not at all powerful. Randyll Tarly himself is incredibly well respected, even feared, but from Sam's view, and also Randyll's comfortable position at Mace Tyrell's right hand, he's far more in the way of a powerful individual than lord of a particularly strong house.

On a side note regarding the luxurious armour of loras, I always thought it to be sponsored by Renly.

why would anyone ever think this? Renly is not particularly wealthy, even as Lord of Storm's End. Indeed, when he needs help, where does he run? to Highgarden. The Wealth of Highgarden is practically immeasurable, that of Storm's End, far too easily calculated, especially considering the Stormlands are likely to poorest in Westeros aside from the Iron Islands... it is also one of the very smallest "kingdoms".

It was a great read, I agree and I can only agree regarding the general historical observations but - there's always a but - I don't see the Tyrells power as very strong. Their claim to the wardenship is not the best:

without trying to give offense, are you reading the same books i did? You seem to base your assumption that the Tyrell's claim to being the heirs of House Gardener as the sole reason for their position as Wardens of the South. That their allies are what make them strong, and that they were lucky none of their bannermen sided with Robert.

Firstly, their heriditary claims to House Gardener's lands ARE NOT the strongest, However their position was granted to them by Aegon the Conqueror himself. They DO have a hereditary claim, nonetheless. Only House Florent's is stronger, and they are vastly inferior in terms of power to the Tyrells.
Secondly, House Tyrell is inarguably the most powerful House in Westeros. Renly's obsession with them (earned as a boy surviving the siege of Storm's End) and later alliance, then the lengths Tywin goes to to ensure their alliance with the Iron Throne after Renly's murder, prove their power.
ALL the Great Houses are vastly more powerful than their bannermen. In fact its only House Baratheon of Storm's End who has a bannerman that actually rivals them - House Swann. The fact that the Reach's power is so great is not only due to House Tyrell, but also to the massive size and population of the kingdom. There are many powerful Lords in the Reach... Lord Hightower and Lord Redwyne in particular. Both of whom are very loyal vassals to House Tyrell.
its also not through "luck" that there were no major defectors to Robert's Usurpation. It boils down to the fact that the Reach was vastly happier with maintaining a status quo, than shaking things up. The Reach's power never threatened Aerys, the Tyrell's knew better than the Lannisters in not challenging the throne of a madman. The Reach had also never been so powerful and rich before the targaryens. With no inter-kingdom wars going on anymore, they were free to acquire vast wealth and great influence.
Finally being granted position as Warden of any cardinal point is the due of any great house in a region. And in areas where there are more than one (like the South with Tyrell, Baratheon and Martel) it goes to the most powerful. Its also something of an olive branch. Acknowledging the power, prestige and position of the Lord to whom the Title goes, helping to keep them loyal to the throne in kings landing.

[Gurkhal]

3. The memory of House Garnder is probably still very strong and I wouldn't be suprised that it has strong roots in a hagiographic (I hope I used this word right) veneratin for the old Gardeners among the smallfolk, and perhaps among some of the nobles as well. The Tyrells probably see this with very mixed feelings.

Do you really mean 'hagiographic' as in 'venerating them as saints, holy men, etc.'?
I am not quite sure how that would square with Westerosi religious culture since even Blessed Baelor seems to be more 'good man' than holy man.

I kind of figured that "hagiography" might have been a bad choice of word but I think that both of the versions could exist. Now of course this is based on my limited understandning of Medieval religion and I could of course be wrong on this. But as I see it there would be two ways of rembering the Gardeners, the educated one and the mythological one.

The educated memory of them is probably mostly open to the noble Houses of importance in the Reach, the wealthy and somewhat educated burghers and septons. These will remember the Gardners as good kings who were just, pious, honorable and carrying all the attributes that people look up to and think are missing in the present day. The more pissed someone is on the Tyrells, for one reason or another, they brighter the Gardners will probably shine and probably carrying the exact oppopsite of the thing the person was pissed off by. So if a lord thinks the Tyrells takes to much in taxes he might think about how lenient they treated their sworn Houses etc.

The mythological memory would be for the ones who lack the education necessary or interest for the educated memory and would probably be a mix of oral history passed down, songs that take place during the Gardners' reign and stuff like that. I would imagine that this will be the most common way to remember the Gardners and spread out among the peasents, burghers, petty lords and common knights. In these I could see how the Gardners would be both attributed with desirable qualities but also with various supernatural powers, like stronger than any man, living for a hundred years or always having summer for as long as they lived. They would probably also work in that the Gardeners are compared favorably with the present lords, who might not necessarily be the Tyrells. If there is war and the lords ship the leavies off to die on some forgotten field the people might tell stories of how it was always peace and summer when this or that Gardener ruled.

Just some ideas.

I find it really strange that only the Florents wants to replace the Tyrells of all the powerful Houses with alot of tradition behind them in the Reach.

Well you do not make trouble just for the hell of it. Peace is preferable for anybody with an interest in trade... or tax... or any economic venture really.
If the Tyrells do not **** it up and make sure every body has a place at the table few will want to topple them.

I think it depends alot of what kind of trouble we're talking about. Lineage and status seems to e very important in Westeros and so causing problem for it might not be considered to be "just for the hell of it". Also I'm not primarily talking about armed rebellion, since that would bring down the wrath of the Iron Throne on the rebels. But I could see undermining the Tyrell's legimitmacy, plotting to shame them and stuff like that going on from Houses that don't like the Tyrells. After all I don't think the Tyrells got good by the business of plotting, manipulation and assassination by not practicing it.

Again these are just some of my ideas.

If therer is any system of serfs in Westeros its probably in the Reach.

Feudal system does not work without serfdom so you will find something like that in every kingdom.

I was kind of speaking from the persepctive of Sweden as we never had serfs here but we had at least the formal parts of feudalism, I think, in that rich men would support the crown with knights in return for tax benefits. But I know that I could be wrong since Sweden didn't got the same way as Continental Europe in this regard and it might not count for what is considered feudalism.

4. The Tyrells are mostly viewed as upstarts and pretenders by alot of House, certainly by more than only the Florent who might think they have a better claim to be Lords Paramount although few of them are willing to attract the wrath of the Iron Throne. As I see it the Florents are the loudest bannermen who want Highgarden for themselves but not the only ones. I find it really strange that only the Florents wants to replace the Tyrells of all the powerful Houses with alot of tradition behind them in the Reach.

I don't see this supported anywhere in the novels at all. Aside from House Florent, the majority of the Reach are loyal bannermen to the Tyrell's.
Moreover, the Florent's might have wanted the throne of Highgarden, but the important factor here, is that House Tyrell is vastly more powerful than any of the other houses in the Reach.

You are right that it isn't supported in the books and I've should probably have added that it was a non-canon based idea about how to spicy up the Reach politics if needed for a good story. Although in my defense, which isn't nearly right on but somewhat close, there are mentioiongs in Dance of Dragons that the Reach might not prove to be as faithful to Highgarden as Mace thinks.

[Totoro]

Although in my defense, which isn't nearly right on but somewhat close, there are mentioiongs in Dance of Dragons that the Reach might not prove to be as faithful to Highgarden as Mace thinks.

Could you cite this? I don't remember anything like that.

[Gurkhal]

Could you cite this? I don't remember anything like that.

Right I've found it. It wasn't exactly as I remember it but close enough. Its from the American version, I think, of A Dance of Dragons, page 317 and pretty low on the page near the end - at least in my hardcover version.

Laswell Peake rapped his knuckles on the table. "Even after a century, some of us still have friends in the Reach. The power of Highgarden may not be what Mace Tyrell imagines."

[crowofpyke]

5. Very rich and populous although I would think that the nobles' grip on the smallfolk is the strongest here than perhaps in any other place in Westeros. If therer is any system of serfs in Westeros its probably in the Reach.

The exact opposite is true. Two things effect peasant movement and the strict application of any kind of "serf code". 1- How poor a region is or any widespread disaster, and 2- how rich a region is overall.

1-If a region is very poor or has had some widespread disaster, lords will actually go and STEAL the peasants from their neighbors AND protect said peasants from retaliation. Why? If you are a lord, you want your lands worked, period. That can't be done very well without the peasants to work them. History is well stocked of examples of lords working their own fields because they have lost all their peasants - work your own fields or starve.

2-If a region is rich it raises the possibility of economic specialization, as I noted above. Economic specialization is when you have more peasants than you need to work the fields - your population is large enough already. This means peasants can move away to towns and cities and be a silversmith, or baker, cobbler, etc. Overall this means more movement to towns and cities and the creation of a free merchant class. This is The Reach.

It is when a region is neither too poor or too rich that the "sweet spot" of peasant servitude is found. It is not so poor that other lords are tempted to steal your peasants, nor is it too rich to promote economic specialization and the movement of peasants away from your lands to get other opportunities.

As for House Tyrell:
No one cares where they came from or how "upjumped" they are... they have control now. That may be through the careful use of alliances with other major houses, and that's fine. Who leads? Tyrell. Which means either they have the means or the goods with which to do so, including putting fear into their possible enemies... and likely fear into their allies as well. If Tyrell goes down, the whole region will destablize... at least that is what would occur based on historical data of "the real world".

Again, hope this helps.

[Zorbeltuss]

Historically, the deciding factor is whether it is workers or arable land that is in most demand.

In France, peasants could generally leave if they wanted to, but all the lands suitable to grow things on was already in use. Some local Lord had a right to his share of the harvest of whoever worked this or that parcel of land, and there wasn't really anywhere a farmer could go to get a better arrangement.

In Russia, there was so much unused lands that the only way for Lords to ensure that they had peasants to work on their lands was to force them to work on their lands. Which they did.

Africa is also an example, the entire sub-Saharan slave-taking business had been around long before some Europeans came up with the bright idea of shipping slaves to work on plantations in the New World. Non-arab Africa before 19th century had a lot of land, but a very small population compared to what it could support. Tribes had staged raids against each other to get more people for centuries before the Europeans started buying, and some argue that the Atlantic slave trade only picked up a fraction of the slaves taken in total.

[Gurkhal]

5. Very rich and populous although I would think that the nobles' grip on the smallfolk is the strongest here than perhaps in any other place in Westeros. If therer is any system of serfs in Westeros its probably in the Reach.

The exact opposite is true. Two things effect peasant movement and the strict application of any kind of "serf code". 1- How poor a region is or any widespread disaster, and 2- how rich a region is overall.

1-If a region is very poor or has had some widespread disaster, lords will actually go and STEAL the peasants from their neighbors AND protect said peasants from retaliation. Why? If you are a lord, you want your lands worked, period. That can't be done very well without the peasants to work them. History is well stocked of examples of lords working their own fields because they have lost all their peasants - work your own fields or starve.

2-If a region is rich it raises the possibility of economic specialization, as I noted above. Economic specialization is when you have more peasants than you need to work the fields - your population is large enough already. This means peasants can move away to towns and cities and be a silversmith, or baker, cobbler, etc. Overall this means more movement to towns and cities and the creation of a free merchant class. This is The Reach.

It is when a region is neither too poor or too rich that the "sweet spot" of peasant servitude is found. It is not so poor that other lords are tempted to steal your peasants, nor is it too rich to promote economic specialization and the movement of peasants away from your lands to get other opportunities.

As for House Tyrell:
No one cares where they came from or how "upjumped" they are... they have control now. That may be through the careful use of alliances with other major houses, and that's fine. Who leads? Tyrell. Which means either they have the means or the goods with which to do so, including putting fear into their possible enemies... and likely fear into their allies as well. If Tyrell goes down, the whole region will destablize... at least that is what would occur based on historical data of "the real world".

Again, hope this helps.

1. I agree that with a lower population count that population will be more valuable and that disasters that affects the demiography can have social effects. And I do not doubt that petty lords might be forced to work their own fields if the tides turns agaisnt them. Seems very reasonable to me and as you said, historically anchored in the relevant time period.

2. I agree entirely that surplus will allow an economical specialization to be created but I think that you are a making some wrongs here. As far as I've understood it once that economical specialization has been established and organized into a system that kind of mobility that you talk about will be very much limited. The cities and towns may refuse to let farmers come into it due to the fact that they don't want more beggers. Add to this the guilds and I think that the kind of mobility that you are talking about will be very limited once the system is established and I pretty much think it has been established for some time in the Reach.

3. I don't know. I'm of the opinion that the rule over the serfs were much harder than that.

4. As for Tyrell that don't really make much sense to me. We can see in the Riverlands that the Riverlords will turn on the Freys at moment's notice despite the fact that the Freys are in control and people seems to care alot of how they got there. I would think that the Tyrells are only lords due to centuries of machinations and two major wars against dissident lords, the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions, and only in recent memory can the House of the Rose start to feel secure.

PS: I know that the Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellions were not civil wars in the Reach specifically but I would imagine that those were the times when the Tyrells and allies faced their Reach-located enemies in open warfare to settle the matter of who should replace the Gardeners.

5. Helps alot. Its always interesting to see other's perspective on various topics.

[DaimosofRedstone]

3. I don't know. I'm of the opinion that the rule over the serfs were much harder than that.

Harder how?
Harder on the serfs, harder to establish?
I do not get what the hard is refering to.

4. As for Tyrell that don't really make much sense to me. We can see in the Riverlands that the Riverlords will turn on the Freys at moment's notice despite the fact that the Freys are in control and people seems to care alot of how they got there. I would think that the Tyrells are only lords due to centuries of machinations and two major wars against dissident lords, the Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions, and only in recent memory can the House of the Rose start to feel secure.

That is the point:
The Freys are NOT in control. They might have been named the first House of the Riverlands, but 1.) they have a whole guerilla army against them whose most favorite sport seems to be hanging Freys, 2.) their power is not secure since it hinges on the Lannisters winning the war which they have not yet done and most importantly 3.) there is a civil war on and in those times shifting loyalties come a lot easier, especially if you live in the war zone.
The Reach on the other hand is verxy much not in the war zone.