Kingswood?

[Lord Ben]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Graphic ... ros_03.jpg

The Kingswood looks to be the size of a kingdom. The wiki says the Kingswood is the Kings private hunting forest, but it would appear a lot of it is in the Stormlands. I assume there is a portion of that forest for the King but the largest part is the Stormlands?

[coldwind]

Can't say if it's a large part or not, but House Fell of Felwood is located in the southeast of the Kingswood on most maps, and they're a Stormlands house.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Well, could be that only the hunting part is the kings private thing, as in only the king is allowed to hunt in the kings forest.
As for the rest there will be people manning logging and charcoal operations, people patrolling against poachers, people living of pigs feasting on the worms and everything that drops from the trees, etc.

Or Robert is an even greater ass than we knew and really made a forest the size of a kingdom his personal hunting preserve.

[Gurkhal]

I think the Kingswood has been the king's personal hunting areas but right now I think that it is different. I for example recall that Jaime, when he thinks of his younger days, thinks that when Arthur Dayne lead the campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood he arranged for the population living within the Kingswood to be given the privilege of hunting game in the Kingswood in order to win them over from the Brotherhood. As far as I know that privilge hasn't been withdrawn. But its entirely possible the people are restricted to small games and predators and not to hunt the big game that the king might want hunt.

And almost the same happend during the War of Five Kings when Tyrion made it allowed for hunters from King's Landing to go to the Kingswood to hunt in an effort to help against the starvation in the city. So I would think its really not that strict.

[DaimosofRedstone]

I think the Kingswood has been the king's personal hunting areas but right now I think that it is different. I for example recall that Jaime, when he thinks of his younger days, thinks that when Arthur Dayne lead the campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood he arranged for the population living within the Kingswood to be given the privilege of hunting game in the Kingswood in order to win them over from the Brotherhood. As far as I know that privilge hasn't been withdrawn. But its entirely possible the people are restricted to small games and predators and not to hunt the big game that the king might want hunt.

And almost the same happend during the War of Five Kings when Tyrion made it allowed for hunters from King's Landing to go to the Kingswood to hunt in an effort to help against the starvation in the city. So I would think its really not that strict.

It is strict.
At least if we talk about the exceptions nobles take when peasants start to hunt large game (might have to do with the fact that this activity also trains all the skills necessary to kill humans). The peasants of the kingswood as far as i remember got the privilege (!) of hunting a set (!) number of deer per year, as in "your village is allowed two deer per year" not as in "hunt away my friends there is enough for everybody!"
Same for the emergency in the war of the five kings; It was an emergency where the restriction was explicitly lifted before bands of hunters were sent.

[Gurkhal]

I think the Kingswood has been the king's personal hunting areas but right now I think that it is different. I for example recall that Jaime, when he thinks of his younger days, thinks that when Arthur Dayne lead the campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood he arranged for the population living within the Kingswood to be given the privilege of hunting game in the Kingswood in order to win them over from the Brotherhood. As far as I know that privilge hasn't been withdrawn. But its entirely possible the people are restricted to small games and predators and not to hunt the big game that the king might want hunt.

And almost the same happend during the War of Five Kings when Tyrion made it allowed for hunters from King's Landing to go to the Kingswood to hunt in an effort to help against the starvation in the city. So I would think its really not that strict.

It is strict.
At least if we talk about the exceptions nobles take when peasants start to hunt large game (might have to do with the fact that this activity also trains all the skills necessary to kill humans). The peasants of the kingswood as far as i remember got the privilege (!) of hunting a set (!) number of deer per year, as in "your village is allowed two deer per year" not as in "hunt away my friends there is enough for everybody!"
Same for the emergency in the war of the five kings; It was an emergency where the restriction was explicitly lifted before bands of hunters were sent.

You are right about the situation during the War of the Five Kings but I think you are somewhat wrong about the Kingswood situation. You are correct in that for the most parts poachers are hanged and that's it. In regards to the peasents it was some time since I read it but I'm pretty sure the deal was sweet enough help turn the population away from the Kingswood Brotherhood and thus I don't think it was any morsels and certainly more than two deers a year.

[Lord Ben]

I guess mostly I was setting up a Stormlands house inside the Kingswood that is loyal to the Targaryens (during the rebellion) and I wasn't sure if it was a giant untouched forest dedicated to only hunting or if that was only a small portion of the forest.

Personally I'm going with the small portion, King or not nobody needs an entire forested nation for hunting. A few thousand acres in a few different spots works fine.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Personally I'm going with the small portion, King or not nobody needs an entire forested nation for hunting. A few thousand acres in a few different spots works fine.

Unless you hunt from atop a dragon

[Kajani]

In addition I would add, that the Kingswood is REALLY huge, so that the local people surely have the right to hunt more than two deer a year per village. This is not England or even the German Empire or France, were hunting ground is limited. Of course the people could not hunt after will, but I would guess it is more than: "pigs, small animals and predators at will" (as long as bears are not exterminated if the king want them), and a number of deer and so one per village - perhaps one or two per familiy? We speak (I think) about not huge masses of people in a really huge wood. In some aspect the law in Westeros seem not so strict (by the way - on no place it is made clear if the peasents are personal free or if they are bound to the ground... and if they could be bought with the ground - without surely not, that would sound to much like slavery, which is condemned by the Seven).

[Iron Legs]

I think there is something you don't know, lads.

In Middle Ages, hunting wasn't only a game. It's a way to get MEAT. If a lord of a king wants to uphold a force of knights, he needs to feed them. And to keep a knight strong, he needs meat. So he needs to have deers in the forest. So nobody else can kill his game.

So, if the king of Westeros wants to feed an entire garrison of thousands of soldiers in King's Landing, he needs a King's Wood.

Also, in the Middle Ages there werent' apropiated maps. So the Kingswood is probably unexploraded in the greatest part. That's why a brotherhood of bandits could hide inside it for years. Until a great campaign was engaged, with all the borders of the forest closed and search parties roaming everywhere. Even there the Brotherhood gave a serious fight.

[Iron Legs]

Also, there were unexplored forests in central France, in Germany, and in Spain. So no surprise the Kingswood (apparently) doesn't have knights or lords.

[DaimosofRedstone]

In addition I would add, that the Kingswood is REALLY huge, so that the local people surely have the right to hunt more than two deer a year per village. This is not England or even the German Empire or France, were hunting ground is limited.

Well, for a very limited definition of limited. I think for the HRE we speak of roughly 50%+ forests (in Germany it is still agrant total of 31%, a we reduced that a lot while going into the modern age), same for England(now 11,1%) and France (31% as of 2000).
It was a question of privileg and the fact that hunting symbolizes the difference between the warrior and the farmer.

(by the way - on no place it is made clear if the peasents are personal free or if they are bound to the ground... and if they could be bought with the ground - without surely not, that would sound to much like slavery, which is condemned by the Seven).

You do not buy people.
You buy the ground.
Much like today when you buy somebody's farm or maybe even his debt. Sure, you did not buy him, but you bought his means of survival + something that keeps him there.

[Gurkhal]

I think there is something you don't know, lads.

In Middle Ages, hunting wasn't only a game. It's a way to get MEAT. If a lord of a king wants to uphold a force of knights, he needs to feed them. And to keep a knight strong, he needs meat. So he needs to have deers in the forest. So nobody else can kill his game.

I think that you are entirely wrong as by all accounts that I have seen there were cattle being kept during that time period and hence hunting would be far from the only way to get hold of meat.

[Iron Legs]

Gurka:

I'm not saying the game is the only source of meat. I'm only saying is the one reserved to the king and his knights. Eating deer is a privilege. So the wood's big game is off limits for most of the hunters.

In the Middle Ages, a peasant could be hanged if he killed a king's deer. Also, not every baron or little lord had lots of cattle, but there were woods everywhere.

I suppose when KIng's Landing was founded Aegon and his army didn't had herds around, so he reserved the Wood to supply himself. As the city grew, so did the number of mouths, so the kings extended the limit.

[Kajani]

But isn't the Kingswood far to much to be used for feeding Kings Landing? Deeper than one or two day march in the wood, a lot of the hunted deer would be lost before you could prepare it. For that, I think hunting parties from KL mostly only use perhaps the northern 5 to 10 leagues of the wood...
We do not know if in Westeros there are hold great hunts with nets. You could never feed a force or even your knights by hunting in the traditional way (small parties), you need great hunting-parties which look more like armies to kill hundreds and hundreds of pigs and deer. If I look on Brandons gift (25 leagues, right?) and compare it with the Kingswood, the wood seems 75 leagues from east to west, 50 from north to south (more or less), which mean 225 miles/ 150 miles. No greater town or clearing, no great important castle is mentioned in the wood (as far as I know, I may be wrong). This IS huge.

[DaimosofRedstone]

I think there is something you don't know, lads.

In Middle Ages, hunting wasn't only a game. It's a way to get MEAT. If a lord of a king wants to uphold a force of knights, he needs to feed them. And to keep a knight strong, he needs meat. So he needs to have deers in the forest. So nobody else can kill his game.

I think that you are entirely wrong as by all accounts that I have seen there were cattle being kept during that time period and hence hunting would be far from the only way to get hold of meat.

Well, entirely wrong is a bit harsh.
Places with well-developed agriculture, good soil and adequate population? Pigs and Cattle it is.
Places with poor Infrastructure and problems to sustain themselves? Small game and Fishes for the Peasants, Deer for the knights.
But hunting is the knightly sport. There is a whole corpus of laws just to regulate who could hunt what with what and where. It is important.

Best i can explain it, is that the Kingswood was originally meant to feed the dragons (who, as we know, tend to venture quite far) and privileges, once taken or granted, die hard.

[Gurkhal]

I think there is something you don't know, lads.

In Middle Ages, hunting wasn't only a game. It's a way to get MEAT. If a lord of a king wants to uphold a force of knights, he needs to feed them. And to keep a knight strong, he needs meat. So he needs to have deers in the forest. So nobody else can kill his game.

I think that you are entirely wrong as by all accounts that I have seen there were cattle being kept during that time period and hence hunting would be far from the only way to get hold of meat.

Well, entirely wrong is a bit harsh.
Places with well-developed agriculture, good soil and adequate population? Pigs and Cattle it is.
Places with poor Infrastructure and problems to sustain themselves? Small game and Fishes for the Peasants, Deer for the knights.
But hunting is the knightly sport. There is a whole corpus of laws just to regulate who could hunt what with what and where. It is important.

Best i can explain it, is that the Kingswood was originally meant to feed the dragons (who, as we know, tend to venture quite far) and privileges, once taken or granted, die hard.

Maybe I exaggerated a little. But I do not think that the Kingswood was for the dragons since they flies and are pretty large, hence hunting in the woods would probably have been rather difficult for them. My guess is that, to be honst, the Targaryens and in particular the early ones with live dragons had some very impressive egos and thus took the whole forest to be their hunting ground. Also since the king would be expected to have some rather large hunts with the most important nobles they might need a very large forest to do it in. And of course the ego stuff probably came into it as well.

But that's just my conjecture.

[Lord Ben]

But they wouldn't travel a few months.

I think the way I'd do it if my friends ever get moving on char creation would be that each lord within the Kingswood is supposed to keep a large section of forest (a few square miles) specifically for the King to hunt in. But the rest of the land is used by the lords and population within the forest.

[DaimosofRedstone]

But they wouldn't travel a few months.

I think the way I'd do it if my friends ever get moving on char creation would be that each lord within the Kingswood is supposed to keep a large section of forest (a few square miles) specifically for the King to hunt in. But the rest of the land is used by the lords and population within the forest.

But who would live IN a forest?
What would they eat?
Where would they live?
The Merry band likes to picture wild-romantic, but hunter-gatherer is quite primitive even from a medieval perspective. A population of forest-dwellers substituting on berries and meat would most likely not even HAVE a lord more like a chieftain who you can identify because he is a little less dirty and little bit bigger than the rest.

[Lord Ben]

People with stuff to do there. The occasional rich mine might have a bit of cleared land, a few tiny farms along fertile streams, etc.

One idea for the house in question was that they would be the wardens of the forest and game keepers for the kings.

[Kajani]

The people in the wood may also trade timber and other goods (for example there may be large groups of half-tamed pigs, which live from the wood) for the amount of crop they need but can not produce. I think, along the roads (there are two main roads, right?) there must be some kind of civilization.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Why MUST there be civilization?
It is not like roman roads in Europe are settled on their entire length. In most cases you have settlements at crossroads and at fords.
Sure, i am not gonna argue that their is human life inside the forest. But enough economical power to sustain a hierarchy of feudal proportions?
Unlikely.
Also why would you herd half-wild pigs in the forest which you have to trade for food (one assumes at a quite bad price due to your essential neediness) when you can do it in the flatlands and have your own field beside?
It is not like the 7 kingdoms are cramped or in the process of becoming too small for their population.
As for timber those operations would be done as close to a road and the place of sale as possible, most likely in the northern half of the forest towards kings Landing or near the Wendwater, but these would again be pure work operations.
People come their to harvest wood, are supplied while they are there but they do not erect a feudal system since they do not live there.

[Gurkhal]

Don't forget that there are likely going to be hunters hunting for pelts and furs as well since there likely are many large, and small for that matter, animals in that forest.

[DaimosofRedstone]

Don't forget that there are likely going to be hunters hunting for pelts and furs as well since there likely are many large, and small for that matter, animals in that forest.

But those would in all likelyhood be people either living outside the forest or in solitude inside the forest and beholden to no lord (though not exactly outlaws).

[Lord Ben]

Don't forget that the "Kingswood" is largely in Stormlands territory and not the Kings Landing territory. If it was all a private hunting reserve for the King you'd think he'd have it under the capital.