Dwarves don't wear plate....

[baronzaltor]

2 yard squares is the intended measurement to be used in the game though.. (if useing a map.)


players handbook pg 58, sidebar regarding battlemaps:
"Using miniatures and battle maps in Dragon Age is easy. Two yards in the rules translates into 1 square or hex on the map. Round down if needed. So a character with Speed 9 would move 4 squares or hexes on a battle map with a move action."

i suppose that does beg the question of why they dont just cut the speed value in half if thats the intended move rate.

[Hellebore]

Sure, but using the map isn't a rule of the game, it's an option.

Certainly if they just said that dwarves were speed 4, humans 5 and elves 6 (although the elf is stil 50% faster), the representation on the battle map grid requires less overall movement.

We never play using optional battlemaps (and thus don't play D&D) so the movement is far more obvious.


Hellebore

[Klaus Æ. Mogensen]

Besides, with 2-yard hexes, you can say that a diagonal move costs 3 yards of movement, and then it is nice to have movement measured in yards rather than hexes.

- Klaus

[Admiral Yacob]

I used to play without and my group requested we start using one. We currently do exactly as Klaus suggests with squares, 2 yards and 3 diagonals. I have to agree with some of the previous posters, I have a dwarven rogue and warrior along with an Elven "Warrior" (too long to explain here, but fights in melee) and the dwarves haven't complained about the situation yet.

As GM, I don't plan to intentionally abuse their disadvantage with something like kiting because that wouldn't be fun for them and fun is the entire purpose. I think it's a matter of GM style as well that would make it an issue. If a GM chooses to have enemies who will try to keep their distances or use "hit-and-run" tactics, then dwarves would be disadvantaged (though both my dwarves carry ranged weapons so that's a bit less of an issue). If GMs choose to either not use those techniques or use them in a limited capacity (such as with only one or two of the enemies in the entire fight or not going as far as they could) then other characters can help (the elf in mine can run up and skirmish them back into the dwarves while the dwarves are dealing with the rest of the fight) or the dwarves can work their butts off to catch up and be involved. Either way, the players still feel their characters are involved and don't feel the GM is being "easy on them".

[Klaus Æ. Mogensen]

Dwarves also have greater Constitution than most other characters. Even though there are no rules for it, I think dwarves might be able to catch up with similarly armored elves and humans because of their greater endurance. Running and Stamina focuses will also help.

BTW, the Running focus is described as "Moving quickly in both short sprints and
long distance hauls." How does this work for sprints? Speed is based on Dex, but Running is a Con focus. Do you get to add another 2 yards to your Speed when running, anyway? Or can you make a Con test to run faster? Say, TN 10+X to run X yards more?

- Klaus

[Loswaith]

2 yard squares is the intended measurement to be used in the game though.. (if useing a map.)


players handbook pg 58, sidebar regarding battlemaps:
"Using miniatures and battle maps in Dragon Age is easy. Two yards in the rules translates into 1 square or hex on the map. Round down if needed. So a character with Speed 9 would move 4 squares or hexes on a battle map with a move action."

i suppose that does beg the question of why they dont just cut the speed value in half if thats the intended move rate.

Its a good thing they havent done that. In most games that I have seen break it down into squares/hexes it is often taken that the game is designed to be played with a battlematt, yet simply haveing movement listed as yards it keeps the battlematt implied as optional. A subtle difference for most but, one I have seen come up alot.

... BTW, the Running focus is described as "Moving quickly in both short sprints and
long distance hauls." How does this work for sprints? Speed is based on Dex, but Running is a Con focus. Do you get to add another 2 yards to your Speed when running, anyway? Or can you make a Con test to run faster? Say, TN 10+X to run X yards more?

Thats definatly an odd one as in most cases you typically make con checks for extended running. Though by all accounts it wouldnt be too hard to implement tests to allow further movement for combat similarely to what you have sugested.
I'd likely make the base check 12 to extend your movement (in combat) and haps have the dragon die result the additional yards to movement, to avoid too much abuse or use a similare method as you have sugested but likely with the target at 12+X (where x is additional yards moved). Either way I'd give some penality for a failed roll, posibly either requiring a major action to recover or being 'winded' thus suffering a -2 penality to all tasks.

Unfortunatly the way things stand now a surface dwarf isnt mechanically different from a fereldan freeman accept the lower movement. It would be nice to have whatever the 'stone sence' is fully explained, so its known what the surface dwarves are actuall loosing (if anything fundemental).

[Giorgio]

After reading this thread I am going to combine some of the sugestions here and see how it works out ( core rules + EoT):

Base Speed: Dwarf (8), Human (10), City Elf (10), Dalish Elf (12)
Encumbrance Rule (EoT Vol 1)
Racial Modifier (House Rule): Dwarves halve all armor penalties to speed, while Elves double them.

Hellbore, any game math balance issues I should be aware about if I do this?

[Arimmus]

Racial Modifier (House Rule): Dwarves halve all armor penalties to speed, while Elves double them.

I use this in most of my games, and it works fairly well. Dwarves to me are built for fighting and defense, I give them a +1 to defense due to their small stature. I also use Constitution (Running) whenever a player or NPC makes a run action 2x in a minute. If they fail, they lose the major action, if they succeed, well they run as per normal. If they Fail and roll a one on the dragon Die, they make a Constitution (Stamina) TN 10 to stay awake, if they fail that, they fall prone and are out for x rounds (Each round receiving a new test but +1 to the TN each time). The TN for the Running test varies due such things as weather, and terrain.

[Loswaith]

The rule fairly much procludes Elves from wearing anything thats metal, fairly much defeating the purpose for any elf to go a warrior as well(the main advantage of a warrior being the armour use talent).

Elves can likely get away with light mail making the movement for city and dalish at 6 and 8 respectivly (Dwarves would be at 7), but that drops allot going to heavier armours making heavy mail movement of 4 and 6 respectivly (dwarves at 6, assuming rounding up the penality), while light plate is 2 and 4 respectivly (dwarves at 6 now equal with humans) and heavy plate being 0 and 2 (dwarves and humans at 5).

Clearly, a dalish can kind of get away with heavy mail, but neither elf can use plate in the slightest.

You are better off if you realy want it to just half the penalities for dwarves, so by the time they all are using heavy armours the lower initial movement speed of dwarves makes little difference.

Though I found using Hellebore's idea (if I recall right) of the movement focus (+2 to movement) and droping elves to a base 10, with the focus (resulting in the current 12), seems to work out the best in the long run.

[Lynata]

Hmmh, I guess I don't see the overall problem. Dwarves have much shorter legs, so they can't run as quickly. Some call it a combat disadvantage, I primarily regard it as plain ol' realism. Speed penalties are quite simply the price you've got to pay for this high amount of protection. No, not everyone needs to be as fast as everyone else, that's the entire point.

"Kiting" is possible as per the rules. Obviously, it'd be just as possible in the "real" world of Thedas as well, and yet we have yet to hear of this being an in-character problem for dwarven characters in the Dragon Age setting. Maybe because most enemies of a dwarven warrior are either too stupid/aggressive (-> darkspawn!), or because they do not consider this a feasible tactic? Let's keep in mind that people tend to act instinctively under stress, so few will even think of this possibility.

Mechanicswise: Any melee attacker needs to get in range to hurt a Dwarf character. A ranged attacker needs a crossbow to do any damage against someone wearing plate armour, where he requires a Major action just to reload the thing - at which time the Dwarf could obviously choose to close in on his target with a Run or even a Charge action.

Lastly, two simple Dexterity advances to make a Dwarf run just as fast as a human also don't strike me as too much of a gap.
You might just as well complain that Humans are disadvantaged because they can get "kited" by Elves.
Or that anyone in plate armour can get kited by anyone who is naked.

Signed,
- a human in plate armour

[shonuff]

Why does everything need to move the same speed? Different races should be different. Balance does not mean same. If dwarves move faster in armor, are elves going to be given a magic resistance buff, too?

[Disemvowel]

Why does everything need to move the same speed? Different races should be different. Balance does not mean same. If dwarves move faster in armor, are elves going to be given a magic resistance buff, too?

Exactly. This is one of the areas in which another, very popular game about Dragons in Dungeons has floundered; everyone is equal. They are not.

Also, why does everyone treat dwarves like they are midgets? They are up to 5' tall for crying out loud! None of you knows anyone short? 5' is not at a disad for anything, except maybe getting things off of shelves.

[shonuff]

Why does everything need to move the same speed? Different races should be different. Balance does not mean same. If dwarves move faster in armor, are elves going to be given a magic resistance buff, too?

Exactly. This is one of the areas in which another, very popular game about Dragons in Dungeons has floundered; everyone is equal. They are not.

Also, why does everyone treat dwarves like they are midgets? They are up to 5' tall for crying out loud! None of you knows anyone short? 5' is not at a disad for anything, except maybe getting things off of shelves.

My wife is 5'2". She's slow as hell because of her little legs.

Note: I can only say that because she doesn't come here.

[Admiral Yacob]

Why does everything need to move the same speed? Different races should be different. Balance does not mean same. If dwarves move faster in armor, are elves going to be given a magic resistance buff, too?

Exactly. This is one of the areas in which another, very popular game about Dragons in Dungeons has floundered; everyone is equal. They are not.

Also, why does everyone treat dwarves like they are midgets? They are up to 5' tall for crying out loud! None of you knows anyone short? 5' is not at a disad for anything, except maybe getting things off of shelves.

My wife is 5'2". She's slow as hell because of her little legs.

Note: I can only say that because she doesn't come here.

Wow, yours too? Also, if she saw this she'd beat the crap out of me . I know who wears the pants in our relationship and even though I DM here (literally, she's a member of my group) she's in charge when we aren't playing .

On a less off topic, it definitely slows you down compared to someone taller (I'm at 6' even). In my personal example, when walking my wife takes 1.25-1.5 steps for every step I take.

[Zapp]

This rant is directed towards noone in particular.

"Realistically speaking" has no place here - it's a game first and foremost, and all choices should be fun to play.

If you invoke "realism" to justify a debilitatingly slow Speed for dwarves (oxymoronic to begin with since there is no Dwarf race in real life), you should by the same logic make a host of changes - including forcing female characters to be considerably weaker than males. Heck, why not include complex psychology rules to determine whether you get to act at all in a combat situation or if you freeze/panic!

At this stage, you've forgotten you're playing 1) a game and 2) a fantasy game. The keywords here are two: fantasy (as in "not real") and game (as in "fun and play, not boring and work").

Instead, what is needed is verisimilitude - internal logic, that makes our pretend world "realistic" as in "possible and enjoyable to believe in and immerse yourself in".

Verisimilitude says dwarves should move slower than elves, for a complex host of reasons, but unlike "real life analysis" it doesn't tell us by how much. Which is very convenient, since "fun" and "game balance" are two voices quite insistent on which boundaries we have to work within here.

Thank you.

[Lynata]

Ah, but "realism" and "fun" are not two mutually exclusive concepts - though obviously the measure of how much realism is warranted or wanted will differ from group to group and from player to player.

I am not saying anyone argueing against a slower speed for Dwarves is "wrong", I've merely been providing an alternate viewpoint. In the end, it is anyone's own business if and how he wants to deal with this perceived issue. OP asked for our personal opinions, so this is mine.

As for the "female characters should be weaker" - no, that's not how it works and is an inherently flawed comparison. Characters in Dragon Age have their Strength stat differ from individual to individual, and just like in real life there will actually be some men in Thedas who are weaker than some women, so this is a non-issue and realism is preserved. Dwarves, on the other hand ... well, have you ever seen a dwarf who is as big as a human?
Of course, people's ability to run does not depend on size alone, but this is where the Dexterity score comes into play.

As a plate-wearing character, I have yet to encounter any situation where it was particularaly "un-fun" to be slower than everybody else in my party, but as I said, this is a personal assessment and perception will differ between individuals. I like subtle differences such as these between characters, and dislike the one-upmanship leading other systems to forsake such characterful traits.

This isn't PvP. As long as everyone gets to shine in different situations, things don't have to be balanced perfectly everywhere - at this stage, you've otherwise forgotten that this is a game and not a competition.

[Zapp]

As for the "female characters should be weaker" - no, that's not how it works and is an inherently flawed comparison. Characters in Dragon Age have their Strength stat differ from individual to individual, and just like in real life there will actually be some men in Thedas who are weaker than some women, so this is a non-issue and realism is preserved. Dwarves, on the other hand ... well, have you ever seen a dwarf who is as big as a human?

I have never seen a dwarf or elf period.

I maintain that if you start looking at physical limitations, why only look at the length of the legs, and not the width of the arms (or any of countless other "realism"-related measurements)?

I am pointing out that if you give lower speeds to Dwarfs on average, then it is illogical not to give lower strengths to females on average. The fact that there are exceptional individuals isn't part of this discussion at all. Both are physical limitations that are undeniably part of the real world, and so why only choose to add one?

Of course, I most emphatically do not suggest that you do lower strengths for females. Quite the opposite!

Just like it would suck to play a warrior with (too) low Strength it sucks to play one with (too) low Speed. Just like it is a bad idea to give females a low Strength, it is a bad idea to give Dwarfs (or anyone, really) a very low Speed.

Unless you and your group find it to add to the fun, of course.

But then you're doing it because of "fun" and not "realism" which is my point: drop using "realism" as a credible argument! Saying "I like my Dwarfs slowed to a crawl" I can respect (if not understand)!

[Lynata]

I am pointing out that if you give lower speeds to Dwarfs on average, then it is illogical not to give lower strengths to females on average. The fact that there are exceptional individuals isn't part of this discussion at all.

Yes it is. Player characters are exceptional individuals by default - there's a certain "strength range" within which characters seem feasible, where it is easy to "equalize" without violating expectations. I'd suppose there's also a certain "size range" within which dwarven characters seem feasible, yet it doesn't reach up to human standards - not even for "exceptional dwarves".
Well, unless you're making them bigger in your game, that is.

But then you're doing it because of "fun" and not "realism" which is my point: drop using "realism" as a credible argument! Saying "I like my Dwarfs slowed to a crawl" I can respect (if not understand)!

That's not it, either. I don't like my dwarves slow just "just because", I like my dwarves "realistic", and being a little(!) slower is just a single aspect of this. The concept of "fantastic realism" is partially where I get my fun from. I'm big on immersion, and having characters behave somewhat accordingly to their looks is part of it.
Coincidentally, the excessive jumping and running in full plate is one of my major gripes I have with the upcoming Dragon Age anime (which I'm still going to buy, though; I'm eager for the story).

There's no real point argueing about it, though - it's quite simply a matter of personal preferences.

[shonuff]

Comparing dwarf size and gender strength is apples and oranges. While men are typically stronger than women, the two sexes are comparable, and adventurers are individuals that can fall anywhere within the accepted range. However, dwarf height IMO is something coded in the genetics. You don't see a fat elf, a human with a pre-hensile tail, or any such.

And, IMHO, it's not a choice between "fun" and "realism". "Fun" needs a consistent, realistic framework upon which to build its fantastic world.

[Hellebore]

I think you’re missing the point here. Elves are the ones with the highest speed, not humans. Thus any argument of height and leg length doesn’t work because elves are about the same height or slightly taller than dwarves, but are shorter than humans. So speed must be a factor of more than just legs. If legs were the only option then elves and dwarves would have similar speeds with humans at 12.
 
Then there is the fact that your stats affect your speed. The game isn’t necessarily about exceptional people, especially when a human could start with -1 in their Dex and never upgrade it, producing speed 9, whilst a dwarf could accrue 5 Dex and have a speed of 13. Similarly a female character could start with -1 in strength and never upgrade it, whilst a male character could start with 4 in strength. So the exceptional argument doesn’t really work either, because characters can be relatively crappy compared to one another and NPCs.
 
Afaik these have been discussed in this thread previously.
 
The problem is the gross difference between an elf and a dwarf. Elves start with 50% more speed than dwarves. Two warriors, one of each race, have very different speeds. Give them both fullplate and you’ve got an elf with 7 speed basic and a dwarf with 3. That’s a massive difference given how the game uses speed in combat. As speed is only affected by dexterity a dwarf warrior to be as fast and capable of attacking as an elf warrior would need to put 4 pts in dex, whilst that elf could spread out those 4 pts in strength and constitution, creating a far more effective character.
 
It’s not so much that dwarves are slower than elves, it’s just how much and how that interacts with the armour penalties as written.
 
My solution was to change how armour penalties work and make speed (+2) a focus that elves start with but that dwarves could take, boosting them to 10. Humans could also boost themselves to 12, but would give up a focus to do it. Dwarves have a focus in carrying things effectively, increasing the amount of armour and equipment they can carry before suffering penalties.
 
There are many ways to go about trying to balance this.
 
But the point remains, elves are shorter than humans but faster. Stats can create unexceptional characters. So height and exceptionality do not really support the position that dwarves should be slow compared to elves and humans.

Hellebore

[Disemvowel]

Spud Web, Mugsy Bogues, Temeka Johnson, Jafal Rashed, Tadd Fujikawa, Satoko Shinashi, Paul Lowe would like to discuss this topic with you all.

[shonuff]

I think you’re missing the point here. Elves are the ones with the highest speed, not humans. Thus any argument of height and leg length doesn’t work because elves are about the same height or slightly taller than dwarves, but are shorter than humans. So speed must be a factor of more than just legs. If legs were the only option then elves and dwarves would have similar speeds with humans at 12.

It could also be how their bodies are proportioned, as dwarves have been underground for centuries.

[Lynata]

I think you’re missing the point here. Elves are the ones with the highest speed, not humans. Thus any argument of height and leg length doesn’t work because elves are about the same height or slightly taller than dwarves, but are shorter than humans. So speed must be a factor of more than just legs.

Now that you mention it, this is a bit weird. Not the result itself, but how it is achieved. It seems to me that this should be solved with a general Dexterity bonus which would automatically result in smaller elves achieving similar or slightly higher speeds than humans - but given the massive effect stats have elsewhere in the system, it seems like too much of a bonus to give. Darn.

On the other hand, I suppose this is where suspension of disbelief comes into play - I think I can easily imagine your suggested focus to be included by default as an "invisible" racial trait. Opening it up to other characters is an interesting idea, however.
 

The game isn’t necessarily about exceptional people, especially when a human could start with -1 in their Dex and never upgrade it, producing speed 9, whilst a dwarf could accrue 5 Dex and have a speed of 13. Similarly a female character could start with -1 in strength and never upgrade it, whilst a male character could start with 4 in strength. So the exceptional argument doesn’t really work either, because characters can be relatively crappy compared to one another and NPCs.

I'd argue the human PCs would still just be as exceptional. Just not in the area of running or strength (respectively) but obviously the areas where they do have upgraded their stats. It still makes them stick out from the "average commoner" crowd.

Basically, you seem to say that a player who wants his character to be slower or weaker is handicapped, when ... well, he just doesn't want his character to be exceptional in that one area. I'm saying a player who chooses to boost his stats in those areas is still within the realm of realism, because not all humans have the same speed or strength.
The same goes for dwarves, they're just handicapped due to their shorter size.

It’s not so much that dwarves are slower than elves, it’s just how much and how that interacts with the armour penalties as written.

I see. In this case, I think my common sense would kick in and I'd seek to place additional penalties or bonuses on armour usage - but without touching base speed at all.

One idea that springs to mind would be to simply forbid elves from using full plate at all, as it doesn't swing with the depiction of their frames in the game. Their frail bodies make them run much faster, but at the same time my understanding of fantasy clichés says they'd not be as good at carrying stuff, including heavy armour.
For what it's worth, I see the basic racial modifiers in the game as part of the issue - there's too few difference between the various races, and it actually seems as if Speed is the single-most trait sticking out. This, of course, should not be, here I have understanding for the problem.

Another solution would be to modify armour penalties based on who wears them:


Factoring in the racial speed modifiers, this would make a dwarf in full plate just as fast as an elf in full plate, as the latter's body is slowed down considerably more by his encumbering armour.
I'd prefer such modifiers to depend on a person's Strength and/or Constitution scores, but as said there's too little difference between the races.

Note that I still think dwarves should be slower than anyone else if any other factors are left out of the equasion, but their sturdy bodies should give them some leeway when said modifiers kick in. And the same sense of realism that tells me dwarves should be slower also tells me that elves should have more trouble with heavy armour, so ... I guess that there is some overlap between our opinions after all.

... elves in full plate. Heresy, I say!

[Loswaith]

Personally If I was more inclined to look at it I'd change the system to a percentage based reduction, so heavy leather has a 10% reduction, while light mail, heavy mail, light plate and heavy plate have a speed reduction of 20%, 30%, 40% and 50% respectivly (I'd likely keep typical rounding) as well.

This results in humans having the same factor as listed penalities but the other races vary.
Thusly dwarves end up with -1, -2, -2, -3, -4 while elves end up with -1, -2, -4, -5, -6, meaning that while dwarves have 1 point less penality for the heavier armours over humans elves have 1 extra penality over humans on heavier armours (or anyone else with 12 movement, if you use a movement focus).

Though overall I see dwarves having an inherant slower movement because they are typically short and stocky. Their preportions arent as good for moving quickly. Why elves are inherently faster than humans I dont fully see but assumed it was to play up the lithe and nimble aspect that elves portray (though for my own games have made thier speed 10, and have a movement focus).

[shonuff]

Personally If I was more inclined to look at it I'd change the system to a percentage based reduction, so heavy leather has a 10% reduction, while light mail, heavy mail, light plate and heavy plate have a speed reduction of 20%, 30%, 40% and 50% respectivly (I'd likely keep typical rounding) as well.

That's a solid idea. If I were wanting to tinker with armor, I might look into that more.

Why elves are inherently faster than humans I dont fully see but assumed it was to play up the lithe and nimble aspect that elves portray (though for my own games have made thier speed 10, and have a movement focus).

The knife ears provide an extra amount of lift.