Some general questions regarding Life & Times in Westeros

[Owlhunter]

Hi guys,

I am working on a small adventure and in the process there occurred some question regarding life in Westeros, which I couldnt answer on my own...

1) In the books we learn that Petyr started his career by "running the Ports" in some small village. Is there somewhere more information regarding that position? I guess it is some kind of toll keeper. (Since I read the books in German, i am not even sure which exact term was used) I imagine, that the position evolves around collecting taxes / dealing with smugglers etc and is likely a position of influence and therefore desirable for any house that wishes to expand its power...

2) There is a greater house in each realm, as well as major and minor houses and landed knights. I know that the greater house is the liege lord to the other houses, while landed knights are sworn to a house and have less rights than houses. Now the question: Are minor houses always directly sworn to the greater house or is an additional "layer" common, where minor houses have a major house as a liege lord, who then has the greater house as a liege lord?

3) Law & Order: There exists the "Pit & Gallows" right for landed lords. Now while it is clear that this applies to smallfolk, how is it with more influental persons, which are still no nobles? Like hedge knights, well known bards and most importantly rich merchants? Are they all under the jurisdiction of a minor house if they committed a crime on their lands - or is there a chance to call on the next higher authority?

I am well aware that some of the questions cannot be answered with right/wrong or yes/no, that's why I'd like to hear different ideas how this things likely were handled or how you'd think it makes sense...

[Totoro]

1) In the books we learn that Petyr started his career by "running the Ports" in some small village. Is there somewhere more information regarding that position? I guess it is some kind of toll keeper. (Since I read the books in German, i am not even sure which exact term was used) I imagine, that the position evolves around collecting taxes / dealing with smugglers etc and is likely a position of influence and therefore desirable for any house that wishes to expand its power...

There are no details on this position, besides the fact that he was in charge of the economic aspects of the Ports.

2) There is a greater house in each realm, as well as major and minor houses and landed knights. I know that the greater house is the liege lord to the other houses, while landed knights are sworn to a house and have less rights than houses. Now the question: Are minor houses always directly sworn to the greater house or is an additional "layer" common, where minor houses have a major house as a liege lord, who then has the greater house as a liege lord?

I cannot think of an example from the books, but the game does imply that Major Houses can have Minor Houses as their own banners.

3) Law & Order: There exists the "Pit & Gallows" right for landed lords. Now while it is clear that this applies to smallfolk, how is it with more influental persons, which are still no nobles? Like hedge knights, well known bards and most importantly rich merchants? Are they all under the jurisdiction of a minor house if they committed a crime on their lands - or is there a chance to call on the next higher authority?

I'd say so. As long as the person in question isn't above the landed lord (such as the Queen of the realm or their own liege lord) in hierarchy, the "Pit & Gallows" apply.

[Eisen]

As for 3 I believe such persons still fall under the local lord's jurisdiction but unless the crime is very serious (murder, treason, ect) then the penalty is usually a fine. After all why hang someone who can afford to pay you? Peasants convicted of the same crime usually are subjected to some form of corporal punishment, or forced labor and or hanging for more serious offences.

[Lord Ben]

I can't speak to anything from the novels that supports my position but I see it could go two ways.

#1 Some rich merchant under House Frank traveling through House Bob's lands doesn't give Bob the right to execute him since he's under the authority of Frank.

#2 Bob executes him and it's up to Frank and Frank's army to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I think in Westeros you have the right to do what you can get away with and some landed nobility with a big army has a more legal rights than someone without.

[Kival]

A merchant in my eyes is never a bondsman, and in fact I'd say that a Lord has the right to punish everyone in his own lands who's not of noble birth. If the noble is a vassal of him, he has the right, too. But if he wants to punish another noble he has to go to a liege-lord of that noble. That's implied in Peril. For non-nobles I think there's no right for them to ask for higher justice but if they are powerful reality will force the lord to go to a higher authority.

[Mat]

1) In the books we learn that Petyr started his career by "running the Ports" in some small village. Is there somewhere more information regarding that position? I guess it is some kind of toll keeper. (Since I read the books in German, i am not even sure which exact term was used) I imagine, that the position evolves around collecting taxes / dealing with smugglers etc and is likely a position of influence and therefore desirable for any house that wishes to expand its power...

1) Here I can agree with you, he is running the economic affairs in a port...if I am not wrong the port should be Gull Town.

2) There is a greater house in each realm, as well as major and minor houses and landed knights. I know that the greater house is the liege lord to the other houses, while landed knights are sworn to a house and have less rights than houses. Now the question: Are minor houses always directly sworn to the greater house or is an additional "layer" common, where minor houses have a major house as a liege lord, who then has the greater house as a liege lord?

2)In the game system there are Great House, Major House and Minor house. Then we have landed knight.
Minor house are not always directly sworn to a great house. It happens very often that a minor house is sworn to a major house.

3) Law & Order: There exists the "Pit & Gallows" right for landed lords. Now while it is clear that this applies to smallfolk, how is it with more influental persons, which are still no nobles? Like hedge knights, well known bards and most importantly rich merchants? Are they all under the jurisdiction of a minor house if they committed a crime on their lands - or is there a chance to call on the next higher authority?

3)A lord has jurisdiction in his land because a greater house a mojor or the king itself has granted it. Now it arises a quite complex issue, if the person was really important or "strategic" the lord could ask the "opinion" or send the inquired person in front of the higher lord. Of course can happen also the opposite, if a great/major lord know that an important person as legal problem can ask to judge him/her personally. Everything depends on the situation.
For Landed knight: they do not have authority so they should send the case in front of their lord.

Hope is good for you.

[Owlhunter]

Thanks guys,

To 1) Well I think this leaves me with much freedom to design the position the way I want. I imagine a story about influencing the liege lord (=major house) to chose a player character as the new toll keeper, after the old one died. Which gets the players involved in intrigues with neighboring minor houses that are interested in the position as well.

If the players succeed in acquiring the position, this opens up the opportunity for new aspects directly tied to the job of running the ports. (A smugglers network with ties to another noble house? A conspiracy to sack the town?)

3) Thanks for all the ideas. I think about a story, where the players arrive at a crime scene within their lands, where some inn visitors were killed /raped (?) and multiple sides accuse each other. The players must find out what happened and then decide who to punish and how (which does not necessarily need to be in line with the actual crime )
To add spice, I want to include sides that have some kind of influence in the world but are still under the jurisdiction of the players. So their decision might have political implications for their house (A rich merchant who could help the house in their economic needs, if the house decides in favor of him? A well known bard, who often sings for important nobles? A hedge knight, that was formerly employed by the house's rivals?)

[Mat]

Hi!

I think all your ideas about the murder/rape are very good. If you set up a good architecture for the crime and all the background it will be a very funny game. I like the merchant.
You could also put in a member of a friendly House or a player Household retainer (maybe a son who drink too much and often forget what he has done during its drunkness).

There are plenty of opportunity. Just go in the direction more appropriate for your story.
For suggestion, advice or whatever just ask!I like share ideas!

[Lord Ben]

In the books they frequently talk about trials and rights of trial by combat, etc but in the RPG it seems like they just get the rights. I would suspect that even a lord given the rights of the gallows has to follow some type of protocol for a trial and that there are consequences if it goes poorly.

[Carriker]

Generally speaking, there is a strong divide between nobility and smallfolk (which includes "townfolk" like merchants, craftsmen and whatnot). The right of Pit and Gallows is the right of a lord to mete out justice in his domain. If you're smallfolk visiting some other lord's domain, you are subject to those laws.

Things are not so clear when the criminal is another noble. Remember the trial of Tyrion in the Vale. The ruling nobility took for themselves the right to try Tyrion. There was an element of danger in doing so, of course, because they risked feud with Tyrion's home House.

This is one of the reasons why a trial by combat continues to exist in Westeros: it is a means of judging the guilt or innocence of a crime by the strong arm of the champions, under the belief that the Seven will see that the one who is truly guilty fails in the trial. Frankly, ideas of judicial impartiality don't exist, and most nobles have no intention of allowing another lord to simply decide whether they are guilty or innocent.