Magic and Willpower

[phantom]

Hi everybody!
Last night I was wondering about the usefulness of those two separate abilities. What are the in-game ramifications of uniting them in only one ability, for example Willpower? At first sight, it seems to me that it's not a bad idea, except for mages who lose one of their primary ability...

[Zapp]

I assume you're thinking about folding Magic into Willpower?

I believe making Magic a separate ability is a deliberate balancing decision by the designers. That is, one of the costs of being a Mage is the need to sink points into an otherwise useless ability (Magic having no uses outside of magic)

Removing Magic makes Mages stronger since it frees them to put points into something else (Dexterity or Constitution perhaps) without reducing their powers, something IMHO the Mage doesn't need (he's plenty powerful as is). Other characters wouldn't be affected, since even with a high Willpower they would still not benefit, since they would still not be able to cast spells.

It wouldn't change anything except to simply make Mages faster, harder, scooter. Definitely not sure this would actually improve the game.

Zapp

PS. If DA were a more open game, such as one without classes, where characters could dabble a little in this or that, then I would be more open to the idea, since Warriors and Rogues could then share the benefits (acquiring a little magic on the side). It's in the game as written the removal of Magic would mean a boost for Mages only.

[Lynata]

[...] the removal of Magic would mean a boost for Mages only.

And Templars!

No, I believe you're spot-on. Even if one were to argue on the basis that Dexterity and Cunning are not primary abilities for the Mage class and as such cannot be substituted for Magic, it would still result in a much stronger mage who is bolder (free Willpower in addition to magical ability) and more knowledgeable (freed up some points for Cunning) than he'd be with the current rules.

And gameplay mechanics / balance aside, it also doesn't appear fitting from a roleplaying PoV - magical ability is not equal to strength of will; it is perfectly possible to be an arcane wonderboy who is an absolute coward, just like one could be a meagre hedge-mage who doesn't fear anything.

[Loswaith]

Currently the only real downside to that is due to that everything a mage is focuses on their magic ability, they tend to have a lower willpower or cunning (assuming you use the RAW primary/secondary ability rules). This inherently gives them a little bit of a weakness which will be negated by mixing the two stats.

This also tends to drop mages into only having 2 primary abilities as well (again assuming the use of primary/secondary).

From a mechanical representation the magic ability is a good one and assists in explaining why mages (who will typically have it high) can use magic as opposed to warriors and rogues (who will typically have it quite low) who cannot wield magic (templars being an exception of having magic at a moderate level, though they dont realy wield magic as a mage does either).

[Hellebore]

I think it's pretty obvious that GR did it because Bioware did it; whether bioware did it for the aforementioned reasons is another matter.

The other thing is that bioware use WP to generate mana, with magic being used for casting iirc.

So you could (and it's been suggested a bit here) have mana generated by WP but spells/power using Magic.

Hellebore

[aris]

As Hellebore stated Bioware used WP instead of Magic for mana generation. My question here is why did GR linked mana with Magic instead of WP? What balancing issue did they had in mind? This is something that IMHO has to be taken into account by a group that is going to decide using WP instead of Magic for mana.

[phantom]

Everybody has a good point.
I thought to reduce primary abilities for all classes too: Dexterity and Strength for Warriors, Dexterity and Perception for Rogues, Cunning and Willpower for Mages. I'd choose these because I consider Communication and Constitution useful for all characters (actually I'm using a house rule where characters have a set number of hit points based on class, which doesn't increase with level, plus their Constitution multiplied by 5).
I thought to fold (thank you, Zapp) Magic into Willpower imagining that, although Rogues and Warriors characters can't dabble into magic, some of them would have been excellent mages they've had the opportunity (like Templars).

[Loswaith]

...
The other thing is that bioware use WP to generate mana, with magic being used for casting iirc.
...

Bioware may have used willpower for mana because it was also used for the generation of stamina for warriors and rogues in the computer games. That would make it simpler to have a single stat drive the character resource from a programing code perspective as there is little difference at the end of the day between what mana and stamina actually do. While Green Ronin and tabe top RPGs dont have limitations or the need for code elegancies that computer games often require.

As to combining magic it is likely worth trying out if none of the issuse given are a deal breaker for you, seeing it in play is often the best way to see if the chance has the desired effect you are after. Given mages are typically born with some talent that may be enough to go with rather than any mechancal rationalisation.