The Future of Dragon Fist

Dragon Fist, Chris Pramas' fantasy RPG of high-flyin' martial arts action, is finally going to see print at the hands of Green Ronin. This forum is closed while the game is being re-developed.

Postby Chairman Aeon » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:52 am

Chris, release what makes YOU happy since you aren't going to make everyone else happy. If I need another book to play Dragon Fist (be it True20 or PHB), I won't buy it. If it's not a d20 suppliment then others won't buy it. So rather than trying to please us, please yourself and hope for the best.

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Postby Waldo » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:31 pm

Chairman Aeon wrote:Chris, release what makes YOU happy since you aren't going to make everyone else happy. If I need another book to play Dragon Fist (be it True20 or PHB), I won't buy it. If it's not a d20 suppliment then others won't buy it. So rather than trying to please us, please yourself and hope for the best.

Iain.


Yeah, it's not as if providing a product customers don't want will affect profits in any way. Clearly this is a great way to run a business.
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Postby Lord Gwydion » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:43 pm

Actually, I don't think a d20 book is on the table.

The options are 1 OGL book, a series of 3 OGL books, or a True20 book.

So if option 1 is chosen, one book will be all you need since it will be OGL not d20 licensed, and it will hopefully be easy to port into a d20 game.

Option 2 would get us 3 books that are hopefully easy to port into a d20 game.

Option 3 would get us 1 book that is compatible with the new True20 rules, and I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to convert stuff from True20 to d20.
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Postby Chairman Aeon » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:35 am

Waldo wrote:Yeah, it's not as if providing a product customers don't want will affect profits in any way. Clearly this is a great way to run a business.


You mean as opppsed to asking people on a public forum that don't make up a majority or are even remotely representative of the buying public?

No matter what Chris chooses he's alienating people here.

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Postby Sangrolu » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:06 am

Lord Gwydion wrote:Actually, I don't think a d20 book is on the table.


I understood that. Perhaps my post (and REG's) got people off the topic. As I put it on page one, I'd be more interested in a book that is "traditional-d20" compatible. OGL does not prevent this (I have, for example, already stolen material from OGL WoW). So what I was basically saying on page one was "not choice #3". #1 and #2 work fine for me; I consider the difference between the two more of a business one and doesn't really affect my buying decision as long as the material is adaptable.
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Postby Jason_Sunday » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:03 pm

True20 is my vote!

Edited: Now that I have time to post. I think True20 would be great be cause the system is fast and I think some form of hero points or action points could be used instead of dice. Maybe be use the stat modifier to add to the dice roll. Although I don't think a Theives World like book would be bad either. But True20 is my favorite choice. I will be buying Dragon Fist no matter what form it takes. :green:
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DragonFist future

Postby Taellik » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:06 am

Been too long waiting for this product, don't think it really has any future . . .

Green Ronin missed the tie-in hype interest opportunity for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, HERO, Kung Fu Hustle, House of Flying Daggers, and Seven Swords.

That's five (5) chinese martial art movies that could have drawn interest to Dragon Fist, however, it was opportunities wasted !

I don't see Green Ronin really motivated to bring this product to market, otherwise, it would have done so by now.


R.I.P. Dragon Fist
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Postby Zapp » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:05 am

I'll take option 1 (just release the book) over option 2 (wait for additional material) any day - waiting for 'vapourware' cannot be good for a game which is several years late as it is.

I will note there is no "option 4": connecting the game with an existing wuxia property (making a movie tie-in or similar)...

But in the end I will choose option 3 if that means maximum entusiasm from you, the game's publisher. That's really the important issue: if the customer base senses a stillborn baby you will get no sales. And then I'd seriously consider letting the game go graciously - by putting it out as a free pdf download and be done with it.

So, it all boils down to:
* only publish it on paper if you seriously intend to support the game
* choose whichever ruleset you believe the most in (for any number of reasons, including commercial ones)
* if you believe a True20 Dragon Fist is not only good for the game, but for the "True20" label as well, go ahead with that.

Good Luck!
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Re: DragonFist future

Postby REG » Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:31 am

Taellik wrote:Been too long waiting for this product, don't think it really has any future . . .

Green Ronin missed the tie-in hype interest opportunity for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, HERO, Kung Fu Hustle, House of Flying Daggers, and Seven Swords.

That's five (5) chinese martial art movies that could have drawn interest to Dragon Fist, however, it was opportunities wasted !

I don't see Green Ronin really motivated to bring this product to market, otherwise, it would have done so by now.


R.I.P. Dragon Fist

You mean after the five recent wuxia movies that imported to US, you're done with the genre?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Last time I checked, I haven't seen any new or revived d20- or OGL-based wuxia-style fantasy campaign setting released since Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon film opened in the US theaters. Did you? Well? :-?
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Re: The Future of Dragon Fist

Postby Jonathan Moyer » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:20 pm

Pramas wrote:Now Dragon Fist could be one of those products. We could make it into a True20 campaign setting. There is, however, one big stumbling block: True20 only uses 20-sided dice and that doesn't work with Dragon Fist's stunt dice. We could simply add back in the other polyhedron dice but that might be seen as a weird thing to do with True20. Or maybe that'd just be something particular to the Dragon Fist setting. Other mechancical solutions are also possible, with the goal of ensuring that DF delivers the wuxia goods.

If you go with True20, I think using just 20 siders is the way to go. You could have a Conviction award mechanic for doing cool moves (similar to Exalted), or you could use stunt mechanics similar to Iron Heroes.

The advantage of doing True20 from our point of view is that Dragon Fist then becomes part of a growing line. It isn't just an orphan product that retailers can dismiss. It'd also help us build the True20 brand, which is already shaping up to be a key one for Green Ronin's future.

Personally, I think the d20 cow is on its way to being milked out. You're probably a lot better off going with a house system, in the long run.

There are many people who read these boards that just want you to make d20 games (that is, pretty much for D&D and d20 Modern). This benefits GR, but I don't think these people buy GR games because they want play GR games. Rather, they buy GR games so they can put stuff into their d20 game. In other words, they like using the content in GR material to make tweaks to their "official" WotC game. That's my read on it, anyway - I probably am putting words into peoples' mouths.

So GR publishes more d20 compatible books in an effort to avoid losing these people as customers. However, when the "official" WotC game becomes D&D 4e (which I am certain will have no OGL or d20 license), I believe GR is going to lose these people as customers anyway. I think you'd be much better off making products that will attract your future audience than making products for your current audience which, in large part, I believe are destined to leave.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps people like 3.x so much that, when WotC comes out with 4e, there will be a backlash and noone will buy 4e. However, my feeling is that 4e will sell no matter what, because 4e would be the current, updated edition of the force of nature that is D&D. No matter how neat and cool your 3.x games will be, they will never be relevant to D&D nation when 4e is out.

Another way I think about it is that, from my outsider perspective, GR seems to have had more success when doing things that are different. M&M really pushed the envelope for what a d20 game is, and BR/True20, while it still has warts IMO, really redefined the d20 experience for a large portion of gamers. If the number of posts on these boards in any indication of popularity, then True20 will soon eclipse the Mythic Vistas line (it already has eclipsed Freeport, which has been on these boards for years). I'm not saying non M&M/BR/True20 products are bad (most of them are excellent), but when I think "GR" superheroes, talking cats, and fast-paced adventure are what I think, not "these guys made some cool classes and monsters for my D&D game."

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Re: DragonFist future

Postby Nikchick » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:41 pm

Taellik wrote:
I don't see Green Ronin really motivated to bring this product to market, otherwise, it would have done so by now.


R.I.P. Dragon Fist



Riiiiight. It's not like we've been doing anything else in that time. Haven't had anything else on our plates at all... :roll:


As I've said here before, we've got people working on the new version of the game, we've even got a cover by a name artist in the genre. We're not in this to ride a fad, and let me tell you straight up, after our other experiences in trying to bring out game products closely-themed with movies or other media (Skull & Bones came out near Pirates of the Carribbean, Trojan War came out alongside Troy, and our Eternal Rome book is well-timed to take advantage of any hype over HBO's Rome series) it totally doesn't matter. Seriously.

We're going to do it, and we're going to do it right, and we're going to release it when we're satisfied that it's done. We did that with Mutants & Masterminds, we did that with Blue Rose, and we'll do it with Dragon Fist.
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Re: DragonFist future

Postby Taellik » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:56 am

[quote="REG"]

You mean after the five recent wuxia movies that imported to US, you're done with the genre?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Last time I checked, I haven't seen any new or revived [i]d20-[/i] or OGL-based wuxia-style fantasy campaign setting released since [i]Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon[/i] film opened in the US theaters. Did you? Well? :-?
[/quote]

Nope, I and my gamers not given up on the genre, in fact, keeping tabs on released chnese movies alone demonstrates that.

The thread topic was [b]Future Of Dragon Fist[/b] and after 3 + years of this forum's existence, still no Dragon Fist product.

Green Ronin pursued other avenues of opportunities, in return, their development/promotion of this genre has been in limbo if not outright abandonment until recently when Chirs asked which game engine to develop Dragon Fist under.

Even now, 3 years after the forum was created, Green Ronin still deciding what game engine to use? Illustrates what priority Dragon Fist received in the organization for development & promotion during that time frame.

My gaming group has been able to obtain 4 copies of Swords of the Middle Kingdom for when we play wuxia RPG as part of rotation GM'ing from dealer rooms at Cons and on eBay as our kung fu game system.

You have to hunt and be patient to get a copy, but it's a good alternative to use if you want a wuxia rpg game system and it is a real product you can get your hands on if you find a copy for sale.


R.I.P. Dragon Fist
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Postby madmonk » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:31 am

There is also "Weapons of the Gods" by EOS press... it looks like a cool, fun and solid system... but the problem is that it is not d20...

As a DM, I always want to try new systems, be it d6, d10, true20 or whatever, but the fact is that a lot of player don't want to learn a new rule set for just one campaign...

So, even when I want to get my hand on WotG, I still will wait for Dragon fist. The setting is cool, even if it has "da villian", as I call the final boss. This kind of stuff is what I didn't like of Mind Shadows too, the setting had the uber-villian complex too.

I am one of the people who wants to take from the system and put the cool stuff in my campaign... That is what most players I know do, even with systems like Arcana Evolved or Iron Heroes.
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Re: DragonFist future

Postby REG » Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:52 pm

Taellik wrote:Green Ronin pursued other avenues of opportunities, in return, their development/promotion of this genre has been in limbo if not outright abandonment until recently when Chirs asked which game engine to develop Dragon Fist under.

Even now, 3 years after the forum was created, Green Ronin still deciding what game engine to use? Illustrates what priority Dragon Fist received in the organization for development & promotion during that time frame.

R.I.P. Dragon Fist

So, what you're saying is they shouldn't ask for fan feedback and just released the material they have now and let fate or chance decide?

:roll:
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Postby Waldo » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:51 pm

Does anyone knowledgeable of how the industry works care to speculate on how long it would take for a project like this to get done? If GR hasn't decided on a system yet I assume there's still quite a long while to go. Is it possible for this to be released some time in 2006 or will it be later?
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Postby Nikchick » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:18 pm

Waldo wrote:Does anyone knowledgeable of how the industry works care to speculate on how long it would take for a project like this to get done? If GR hasn't decided on a system yet I assume there's still quite a long while to go. Is it possible for this to be released some time in 2006 or will it be later?


Well, it's not as simple as all that (of course :lol: ). We've been doing quite a bit of work on Dragonfist in the background, but in the course of our work the market has been shifting. Now we have a few issues to address that weren't necessarily part of the original equation. The market is different. Would we be foolish to continue along with a particular design and ignore the fact that, on a completely different project, we developed another system that a) might be usable, b) is increasingly popular on its own.

Anyway, just because we're asking what people here are interested in doesn't mean we've been hanging out twiddling thumbs in the meantime. Of course, for many reasons we're not looking at releasing Dragonfist before 2006 (and weren't whether or not we asked the fans about their system preferences). :)
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Re: DragonFist future

Postby Zapp » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:20 pm

Nikchick wrote:We're going to do it, and we're going to do it right, and we're going to release it when we're satisfied that it's done. We did that with Mutants & Masterminds, we did that with Blue Rose, and we'll do it with Dragon Fist.
While Chris' post was probably merely honest, it came out a little defensive/pessimistic (at least IMHO), so woot for some real "optimistic marketing speek" :wink:
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Late to party

Postby Hollywood » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:07 am

I'm late to this party, but I really think that DF deserves its own OGL-derived system. And keeping the derivative as close to the OGL as possible (minus classes and hitpoints please and based on the d20M SRD as I think the abstract wealth system would work well for DF) I think would serve it best.

True20 is yet another system to learn, as it has differences, and I know I'd get a lot of resistance to it. I know it has the damage save system from M&M, its three core classes are very generic, but it also goes off on its own with its skill ranks == level+3, renaming and combining skills that are now different from the 3.5 standard (for fantasy mind you).

Telling players that we're going to do a Wuxia, especially fantasy Wuxia (of which DF is), with a system similair to D&D but not quite, I'll get looks of 'WTF are you talking about'. However, if its based on the core d20/d20M SRD instead of a derivative SRD (i.e. True20), I would get better reception to it.
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Re: DragonFist future

Postby REG » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:57 am

Zapp wrote:While Chris' post was probably merely honest, it came out a little defensive/pessimistic (at least IMHO), so woot for some real "optimistic marketing speek" :wink:

IMHO, he sounds overly cautious. He doesn't know if the RPG market is ready for Dragon Fist.
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Re: The Future of Dragon Fist

Postby Strand0 » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:25 am

Pramas wrote:All that said, I also want to make sure that you loyal fans are happy. When Dragon Fist does come out, I don't want you all to feel disappointed or ripped off. I know this has been a long time coming and I want Dragon Fist to be a top quality game that truly captures the spirit of wuxia.

So let me ask you all what you'd prefer to see:
Option 1: We proceed with the current OGL variant. This will be a stand alone ruleset. It may receive some report at a later date, but this will depend on initial sales.
Option 2: As above, but we plan a three book arc a la Blue Rose. This would mean the core rulebook would be delayed as we plan out the line. Our goal would be three books spread over six months (basically one every other month). If the line sells well, it could continue.
Option 3: Dragon Fist becomes the first campaign setting book in support of the True20 core rulebook.

What sounds good to you?

Option 3... and add the poly-dice back in. Would make a cool mutant. :wink:
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Postby timemrick » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:26 pm

How about going the single-volume OGL route first, since you've already heavily invested in that. Then after you've seen how well both DF and True20 do, maybe you could offer a True20 version, or a conversion guide.

For that matter, if the True20 core book and Worlds of Adventure do well, some of GR's other popular settings could be converted as web enhancements, or maybe even as print "anthologies" like WoA. (I, for one, would love to see an official True20 Freeport, instead of relying entirely on my own scattered stabs at the idea.) A True20 conversion guide might make a useful appendix for future d20/OGL setting books as well.
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Postby Nagisawa Takumi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:14 pm

Make it OGL and I'll play it straight up from the tap.
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Postby REG » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:56 pm

The product is already OGL and won't have the d20 System label on it.

The question now becomes what system did it actually use? Is it an offshoot (like True20 and Mutants & Masterminds) or a standalone D&D clone (similar to A Game of Thrones and EverQuest).
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Postby ogrelee » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:02 pm

Hi.
I would just like to put in my two cents on this issue.
I'd like to see a d20 compatible version. the reason is simple- my players have no interest in anything else. I've tried several systems, and was eventually told point blank to knock it off.
I did introduce OA, and in spite of the fact that my players don't "Get it", I have fun playing it. Now DF, tha's something I'd like to try on them.
In fact, DF is the only reason I purchased green ronin products at all. :green:
Mostly, I build my games on the core books.(See above response to other attempts).
so there you have it. And if I can't use it in my games, it just becomes another shelf support in my bookcase. :wink:
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Postby skywalker » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:17 pm

ogrelee wrote:I'd like to see a d20 compatible version. the reason is simple- my players have no interest in anything else. I've tried several systems, and was eventually told point blank to knock it off.


OGL is often highly compatible with D&D stuff. True 20 is a great example of a streamlined version of D&D in which many D&D things can be plugged into.

To me OGL seems the best of all worlds. Not only does it have the familiarity of for those who own D20 products but it is a game that stands on its own and has the changes made where needed to get across the game.
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