D20/OGL

[Michael Heacock]

The press release states:

"Dragon Fist will take advantage of Wizards of the Coast’s Open Game License."

So, even if its under the OGL (rather than the D20 license), this is basically going to be a D20 game?

What was it beforehand? Just a computer game? I'm not familiar with the title at all.

Any further info would be cool.

[Pramas]

The press release states:

"Dragon Fist will take advantage of Wizards of the Coast’s Open Game License."

So, even if its under the OGL (rather than the D20 license), this is basically going to be a D20 game?

What was it beforehand? Just a computer game? I'm not familiar with the title at all.

Any further info would be cool.

Originally, it was a cinematic variant of 2nd edition AD&D, released by PDF on the WotC web site after its print version was cancelled. It was built around a stunt dice mechanic that was meant to simulate the crazy martial arts actions of Hong Kong movies.

As written, the stunt dice system isn't really compatible with 3E. The biggest design choice I must make is whether to retain the stunt mechanic and do a complete game via the OGL, or to go d20 all the way and make it as compatible as possible with D&D. It's a tough choice and I'm toying around with different options right now.

[Michael Heacock]

Screw D20.

Go with the Stunt Dice (not sure how these work, but is it similar in idea to Spycraft's Action Dice or, perhaps, SSZ's Zero Dice)? If this is an integral part of the original game, why get rid of it for the sake of D20?

You didn't need the Dragon Fist license to do a D20 Wuxia book, did you? So, if you have the Dragon Fist license, recreate Dragon Fist as an OGL game. If you plan to strip all the "cinematic stuff" out of Dragon Fist to squeeze it into the D20 mold ... then I ask, what's the point of the license? You could have did that without using the Dragon Fist name.

(If you're worried about the D20 folks, include a chapter about converting DF OGL play to pure D20 play.)

[Nikchick]

You didn't need the Dragon Fist license to do a D20 Wuxia book, did you? So, if you have the Dragon Fist license, recreate Dragon Fist as an OGL game. If you plan to strip all the "cinematic stuff" out of Dragon Fist to squeeze it into the D20 mold ... then I ask, what's the point of the license? You could have did that without using the Dragon Fist name.

Point of information: it's not a license, it's an outright sale. Dragon Fist is Chris's, free and clear. Lock, stock, and barrel, as they say.


No matter what Chris decides to do with the game, I'm sure he's not going to "strip all the cinematic stuff" out of it. It's just that the game came out in the lull period when Second Edition AD&D was winding down and before 3E was complete. That makes the game a little "dated" in its design, now that people are used to (and embracing) some of the aspects of gaming introduced with 3E.

What you get with Dragon Fist is all Pramas. It was Chris's baby from conception through execution. The fact that the manuscript existed at all (even in its PDF form) was through his force of will and insistence that his six straight months of design work not be tossed aside. Rest assured, Chris is going to "do the right thing" by the game, whatever design choices he makes in the next couple of months. This time, unfettered by corporate politics, it'll be exactly what he wants it to be.

(Not that we're doing the happy dance around here or anything. )

Nicole

[artbraune]

Originally, it was a cinematic variant of 2nd edition AD&D, released by PDF on the WotC web site after its print version was cancelled. It was built around a stunt dice mechanic that was meant to simulate the crazy martial arts actions of Hong Kong movies.

As written, the stunt dice system isn't really compatible with 3E. The biggest design choice I must make is whether to retain the stunt mechanic and do a complete game via the OGL, or to go d20 all the way and make it as compatible as possible with D&D. It's a tough choice and I'm toying around with different options right now.

Chris,

Don't know if this has come up yet...

If you want to make this another "slam-dunk" Green Ronin product...have it use the the same rules as M&M and make it it's own book. Would be great to play either DragonFist by itself or in the M&M setting...

Later!
Art

[Michael Tree]

If you want to make this another "slam-dunk" Green Ronin product...have it use the the same rules as M&M and make it it's own book. Would be great to play either DragonFist by itself or in the M&M setting...

The fast cinematic damage save mechanic and hero points from M&M would translate well into DF, even it's D20.

[Michael Heacock]

Rest assured, Chris is going to "do the right thing" by the game, whatever design choices he makes in the next couple of months.

As long as he designs a Game , and not a D20 add-on .

And by add-on, I mean a collection of PrCs, Wuxia feats, skills and spells. That, in my opinion, would do a disservice to the original Dragon Fist.

(Yes, I've had a good look over the original. Quite interesting. I'd love to play an OGL version ... I have no use for a D20 add-on.)

[artbraune]

As long as he designs a Game , and not a D20 add-on .

And by add-on, I mean a collection of PrCs, Wuxia feats, skills and spells. That, in my opinion, would do a disservice to the original Dragon Fist.

(Yes, I've had a good look over the original. Quite interesting. I'd love to play an OGL version ... I have no use for a D20 add-on.)

Not to be disrespectful...but Green Ronin D20 and OGL products sell...and sell well...

I'll take whatever we get...haven't been disappointed yet!
Art

[Michael Heacock]

Not to be disrespectful...but Green Ronin D20 and OGL products sell...and sell well...

I don't buy every Green Ronin product simply because it is Green Ronin.

I do think, for the most part, they are of consistently high quality. But they've had a couple of misses in my opinion (whether sales figures bear that or not is another discussion ).

I wasn't impressed with the Assassin's book, so didn't buy it. But was tremendously impressed with the Shaman's book and Wrath & Rage, and own both of those. Book of the Righteous is awesome and will soon buy it. Freeport was a mixed bag, but mostly great stuff (and I own it too.)

I terms of Dragon Fist ... if all you're worried about is the bottom line, then for sure, release it as a D20 Fantasy/Modern add-on. But after reading through "original" Dragon Fist, I think releasing it as an add-on would be a disservice to the great little game I read through today.

A stand-alone OGL would be a far superior product in my mind. Perhaps with a chapter devoted to converting play for D20 Fantasy/Modern for those folks that only play pure D20.

[Erifnogard]

As written, the stunt dice system isn't really compatible with 3E. The biggest design choice I must make is whether to retain the stunt mechanic and do a complete game via the OGL, or to go d20 all the way and make it as compatible as possible with D&D. It's a tough choice and I'm toying around with different options right now.

As I stated in the rumor forum, my vote is OGL. I think that the stunt dice are definitely worth keeping. Also, Dragonfist is definitely a cool concept as is. Though if you wanted to update it to use the Mutants and Mastermind engine with Stunt dice thrown in, you wouldn't hurt my feelings one little bit.

By the way, I just want to throw in a side note to say that Dragonfist by Chris and Slavers by Chris and Sean Reynolds are two of my favorite RPG publications. They are the reason I initially checked out Green Ronin's products and I haven't been dissapointed.

Also, Steve Kenson's Shaman's Handbook is one of the best d20 books out there.

[Olive]

make it a d20 game... art least make it as compatible with D&D 3e as Dragon Fist was with D&D 2e...

thats my 2c.

but this is great news.

any chance that there will be more from Green Ronin on mythic china? i'd love more source books, and it seems that its something that lots of people are clamouring for (as a alternative to rokugan... this would probably only be useful if it was tied into OA), but no one is really doing.

[Timba]

I loved the Dragonfist and I hope it will be published under d20.

[remial]

I say either publish as is (after you include the long promiced masters book as part of it) and have it be a stand alone product.

or make it d20 compatable as much as the original was compatable with 2nd edition.

I also wouldn't mind seeing it have suggestions for alternate time periods. My friends and I ran a short game (six months as opposed to our usual 3 years) where it took place in the 20th centry of that world, and we used gun fu and flying kicks to keep the reborn emperor from taking over the world. We were heavely influenced by "Big Trouble in little China" and John Woo films.

[Bailywolf]

I would love to see a version which uses the very slick M&M d20 variant... especialy yhr damage save system, which would seem to fit the source material better.

[mxyzplk]

As written, the stunt dice system isn't really compatible with 3E. The biggest design choice I must make is whether to retain the stunt mechanic and do a complete game via the OGL, or to go d20 all the way and make it as compatible as possible with D&D. It's a tough choice and I'm toying around with different options right now.

I'd recommend both - the stunt mechanic isn't part of D&D, to be sure, but that doesn't mean it can't be d20. Spycraft is "d20," not just OGL - the only requirement is that you don't include character creation info (how to roll stats, mainly) in the book. But you can completely replace all classes, races, spells, and mechanics that you want. It's not an either-or "d20 or stunt dice" decision.

It seems to me that the stunt dice system especially is easily graftable onto standard d20 as an "optional rule" - in fact, I think having a way to do this even for core D&D characters would be valuable (I mention this at length in my forum post in another forum responding to the original DF announcement). Really, all you have to do is insert the stunt dice by level table and explain stunts and you're done - it's as "compatible" with core D&D as a new magic item is.

Ernest

[Tenzhi]

I think a modification of the Mutants & Masterminds system would work well with DF... To be honest, though, I'll probably buy it regardless (unless you manage to make it run off of RoleMaster or similar rules ).

[Kirowan]

I'm with Bailywolf. The mechanics in M&M seem so damn slick. I think Green Ronin would do well to build another game around them.

Nick

[Bailywolf]

The M&M d20 variant would make a great house system. It might even be billed as 'true d20' as it only uses the big beauties and not a bunch of other rattlers.

One thing that might be fun (something I've been playing with) is rolling a handful of d20's instead of just one- between 1 and 5 typically- and then using the rolled values for different things in the round (each being an action)... so with 5d20, you could make 5 attacks, make 5 active defenses, take 5 move actions (moving distances based on your move modifier plus the d20 roll), make 5 stunts (with DC's based on the genera and inherent difficulty), or make a combination of the above. Its pretty far outside the d20-standard, but fits within OGL.

I think the spirit of Wuxia would be much better served by an OGL product than a pure d20 one... you would have to make too many compromises I think to keep it 'pure'.

-Ben

[Squirrel Nutkin]

I vote for a "Mutants & Masterminds" approach to the Dragon Fist rules too.

Or at least I think I voted for that. I can't tell.

Does that chad look dimpled to you?

[Chairman Aeon]

File me in under the "OGL M&M, Me Too" category.

Dragon Fist using the M&M engine would be very BESM in a good way. Chris your name is on HKAT 2e, so I know you must like some of the Tri-Stat system.

I think trying to encompass wire-fu, gun-fu and anime action using M&M would be the coolest thing since multi-region DVD players.

Iain.

[Squirrel Nutkin]

think trying to encompass wire-fu, gun-fu and anime action using M&M would be the coolest thing since multi-region DVD players.

Amen, brother Aeon! And let's not forget that M&M's Steve Kenson also helped write the HKAT!2 supplement "Blue Dragon, White Tiger"...

[mxyzplk]

Look guys,

I'm sure M&M is a simply spiffy system. But the entire reason that Dragon Fist I was such a success was its appeal to D&D players. Basing a new Dragon Fist's mechanics on a random OGL system that bears little resemblance to core d20 isn't going to serve the game well.

Most Dragon Fist players, I dare say, are also big D&D players. Make Dragon Fist compatible for those folks. Think of it as supporting your core d20 game lines (Jade Dragons anf Hungry Ghosts, for example). I think that a product that allows core D&D players to incorporate Dragon Fist into their campaigns - inserting the new classes, the location and mythology of Tianguo, and using stunt rules for even core D&D classes - would reach the widest audience and make the most sense.

Ernest

[Tenzhi]

Look guys,

I'm sure M&M is a simply spiffy system. But the entire reason that Dragon Fist I was such a success was its appeal to D&D players. Basing a new Dragon Fist's mechanics on a random OGL system that bears little resemblance to core d20 isn't going to serve the game well.

Mutants and Masterminds is as close to core d20 as the original Dragonfist was to 2nd Ed DnD.

[Erifnogard]

If the final decision ends up being to make Dragonfist a d20 suppliment rather than a complete game in itself, I will be somewhat dissappointed. Not so much so that I will not buy it, but at this point the M&M system is so refreshing looking to me personally that I will likely just use Dragonfist as an idea and mechanics mine for M&M at that point. Everyone else is of course free to have their own opinions. Chris will no doubt do what he feels is best (both for the product and for GR) anyway, so basically all we are doing is stating our preferences.

[Tenzhi]

One of the things I dislike about using the d20 license, is that it prevents the inclusion of complete character creation rules.

If it IS completely d20 compatible, at the least I shall be able to easily adapt it to M&M, since M&M is essentially a d20 compatible game, without the d20 license attached.