comparing standart D&D magic with True20 magic.

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comparing standart D&D magic with True20 magic.

Postby Zulgyan » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:48 pm

What if we make this comparison? It will be very useful for modifing, adapting and understanding the True20 magics.
What can True20 magic do and what can't it do?

For example:

Adepts cannot:

teleport
fly
indentify items
polymorth themselves or others
detect secret door
detect traps
other detections


let us continue...
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Postby timemrick » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:57 pm

I think those magics were omitted mostly due to limited space, and maybe for flavor, rather than because True20 can't support them. You can always add new powers if your setting/campaign requires them.

The Blue Rose Companion has limited versions of flight and shapeshifting, which could be adapted to generic True20. It also has rules for teleportation portal items.
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Postby Zulgyan » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:05 pm

I was not pretending to add them, simply to know the differences.
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Re: comparing standart D&D magic with True20 magic.

Postby reverend keith » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:51 pm

Zulgyan wrote:Adepts cannot:

indentify items

The Blue Rose Companion has a sidebar that gives guidelines for using Object Reading for identifying arcane items and discovering their powers.
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Postby The Shadow » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:55 pm

It's also very easy to add flight and teleportation (and dimensional travel, etc.) powers from the Psychic's Handbook.
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Postby Wrathx » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:26 pm

Is the Psychic Handbook really that portable over to True20?
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Re: comparing standart D&D magic with True20 magic.

Postby reverend keith » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:32 pm

Zulgyan wrote:What if we make this comparison? It will be very useful for modifing, adapting and understanding the True20 magics.

Given what Steve Kenson has said in the past, it appears that the best way to add or customize arcane powers that are similar, yet not completely unique, is by introducing them as a feat. ie, Self Shaping or Wind Walk.
Zulgyan wrote:What can True20 magic do and what can't it do?

For example:

Adepts cannot:

teleport

Sounds like a good candidate for a feat, arcana, or both. Portalstones appear to be the closest thing to teleport I've seen so far. (Blue Rose Companion)
Zulgyan wrote:fly

Wind Walk feat (Blue Rose Companion)
Zulgyan wrote:indentify items

Object Reading arcana (Blue Rose, but this application is described in the Blue Rose Companion)
Zulgyan wrote:polymorth themselves

Self Shaping feat (Blue Rose Companion)
Zulgyan wrote:or others

Flesh Shaping arcana (Blue Rose)
Zulgyan wrote:detect secret door
detect traps
other detections

Depending on what you are detecting, Arcane Insight, Touchsight, and the True Vision arcana (Blue Rose Companion) would be useful, not to mention Enhance Senses, Object Reading, Second Sight, Sense Minds, and the Visions arcana (Blue Rose).

Again, depending on what you want to detect (or class of things you want to detect), it sounds like a good candidate for a feat withone of the above arcana as a prereq.
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Postby Zulgyan » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:56 pm

That's a lot of Blue Rose Material. How much of the Blue Rose sistem is portable to True20
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Postby timemrick » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:48 am

Zulgyan wrote:That's a lot of Blue Rose Material. How much of the Blue Rose sistem is portable to True20

Most of it, with a little work. The big difference with magic specifically is that BR characters acquire arcana [powers] through a combination of arcane talent feats (which are prerequisites for groups of arcana, and which allow untrained use of a limited number of arcana) and Arcane Training (which gives trained ranks in two arcana per feat). True20 gets rid of that extra level of complexity so that one feat = one power. In most cases, you could treat BR arcana as new True20 powers, and ignore the arcane talent prerequisites.
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Postby reverend keith » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:34 am

Zulgyan wrote:That's a lot of Blue Rose Material. How much of the Blue Rose sistem is portable to True20

The first page in the Blue Rose rulebook says in big bold letters: Powered by the True20 System

The True20 PDF we have right now has only made some (IMO) relatively minor changes to the system that was introduced in Blue Rose. Most of these changes are easily identified and quite simple to work with. Despite the few changes, the vast majority of the mechanics of these True 20 products are virtually identical. Considering that I raid my d20 books to incorporate rules/feats/etc. for my Blue Rose gaming, the True20 PDF and Blue Rose are (again, IMO) effectively the same document.


IMO, if you let the setting of BR bother you and you refuse to look at the mechanics in books like BR and The Blue Rose Companion... your loss. Case in point, they address the very issues you mentioned that Adepts can't do in comparison to D&D magic users.
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Postby Wrathx » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:51 pm

the True20 PDF and Blue Rose are (again, IMO) effectively the same document.


That is a small stretch... you could say that Blue Rose is a form of true 20 which it is, but it takes different turns. Alot of the mechanics are different or have another layer to look at. In reality True 20 is a form of BR, since BR seemed to have come first.

Toughness and defense for example are really used differently in the two games.

They arent the same document in my opinion. But, they can be used together, pretty easily.

Its like saying the D&D player's handbook is the same as Arcana Evolved.

They are similiar and use the same foundation but take different (minor) approaches to things like backgrounds, combat, skills and magic. for example.

I use the BR books as a resource to take ideas from.
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Postby reverend keith » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:16 pm

Wrathx wrote:That is a small stretch... you could say that Blue Rose is a form of true 20 which it is, but it takes different turns.

Oh, I don't deny that it's a stretch, but I don't think it's distorting it that much.

After all, I didn't say that everything in these books were word-for-word identical. They are, however, iterations of the exact same gaming system, rather than fundamental shifts and changes on sees between different roleplaying games. It's almost like there is one "True 20 game", and we just have two different editions. Both talk about the same thing, and are largely fully compatable with each other, however there are enough tweaks to justify it published as a different book. (Kinda like the difference between 2nd and Revised edition Mage. There were changes... but on the whole, it's the same thing.)

As you stated, there are some fundamental differences between the games. Toughness progressions or acquiring supernatural powers for example. However, beyond some of these design differences, the vast amount of the material is interchangeable, if not word for word identical. Despite the difference in acquiring powers, said powers are largely identical. In fact, that's what I really like about True 20/Blue Rose. It's a toolkit to allow me to pick and choose the gaming systems I like best, within a context that works seemlessly with the rest of the True 20 system. (Not to mention that since it's extremely easy to carve out the good stuff in D&D and other d20 products and import them into True 20 games. Given the size of my d20 collection, that's a huge plus for me.)


Wrathx wrote:I use the BR books as a resource to take ideas from.

I do the exact same thing with True 20 PDF. It has provided a wealth of system tweaks for my Blue Rose game. I'm definately looking forward to the mechanics in World of Aldea and the full True 20 book.
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Postby The Shadow » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:13 pm

Wrathx wrote:Is the Psychic Handbook really that portable over to True20?


Why wouldn't it be? It uses almost exactly the same mechanic (the True20 Fatigue mechanic is listed as an optional rule), and many existing True20 powers are exactly the same as in the Psychic's Handbook, save for name changes.

I don't see any problem whatever in porting over the other stuff if desired.
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Postby Bhikku » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:14 pm

I'll second The Shadow on this. The Psychic's Handbook tends to name and discuss powers in a context that keeps them available for both fantasy and modern/scifi settings (including two that are almost purely modern), and has entire branches of powers that don't appear in BR/True20. Teleportation (and related powers), more ways to use telekinetic ability (such as physical shields), and some more options/levels of detail (like extending psychic shields to cover allies, using Mind Touch to "psychically grapple" an opponent, etc - most of which appeared in the BR Companion).

For the most part you'll be able to drop the powers unaltered into True 20; some conversion might be necessary in cases where dice are used for damage or effect, but by comparing to existing powers you should have no trouble. I'll note that Telekinesis, got split into two powers for BR - Move Object and Manipulate Object - and that some Psychic Handbook powers are given a DC scale for weight, similar to the Difficulty scale for familiarity, but either integrating or eliminated that particular mechanic should be no problem either. Plus there's a 'psychic' template for creatures and a system for making 'psychic constructs,' although it tends to depend on XP (but somewhere in the sea of d20, I'm sure there's a guideline for converting XP costs to a GP value, and I know this forum has at least one thread on how to turn that into a Wealth Difficulty, so the material may still be accessible).

Overall, I'd say the Psychic's Handbook is a useful resource for True 20 (sleightly less so for anyone who owns the BR Companion), as well as an excellent supplement for d20 games of any genre that allows for psychic powers (not to mention simply replacing magic or psionics). It stands up to the usual Green Ronin standards, IMO. There's some decent non-crunch material as well, and prestige classes that could yield interesting feats or paths after conversion.
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Postby Wrathx » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:11 pm

on the Psyhic Handbook... the reason I asked was I have never read it.

That is really good to know that it is pretty much portable with some minor adjustments, I will have to check it out.


I wont go as far as to say true20 is the 3.5 of Blue Rose... but its good to know we are thinking the same way on it. I agree with you that they are fundementally the same system... maytbe like twins that grew up apart.
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