Classless True20

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Classless True20

Postby wubles » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:08 am

Ugh, I can't believe this took me so long to figure out. I tried to reverse engineer all the bonus feats and BAB progression and into skill points and it turned into some kind of ugly point buy mess and I was getting really confused. Then I remembered dliberation20 and the simplistic elegance came to me...


True20 Classless

True20 Classless provides an alternative method to creating characters for True20. Instead of having to choose between the Adept, the Expert, or the Warrior, you may create your own custom class!

You have 6 character points to spend. Pick any of the options below, then subtract the cost of that option from your total character points. When you have no more points to spend, pick your skills and any four feats, and you’re done! Additionally, if you do not wish to use all of your character points, you may exchange them for one feat each. You may not exchange feats for character points, however.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=12/33504513834.jpg&s=x12

That's it. I realize now that I forgot reputation... oh well. And if anyone knows of a better way to do tables and stuff, please tell me :)
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Postby langeweile » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:25 am

nice idea :-)
it messes a little with the individual feats at each level - but a little other way to do it, some will find more appealing (depending also on the setting)

btw: you could use html tables. and you might pack all saves into one table, as you might put attack and def on one (and label it with "points for each). so it might be little more "get it in one view".
and for skills: rather name it skills at than points per level, more conforn to true20 way to do things ;-)
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Postby Stareyes » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:38 am

One critique -- I don't really like the option of exchanging feats for character points, since I think this kinda shortchanges the matter. With a feat, you could get +2 to a save (with a CP, you can get an eventual +6) or +1 to Attack/Defense (as opposed to +5 from CP). I also like the fact that this allows for partial casters, though the sticker shock on full casting was a mite surprising (until I did the math and realized that a fighter paid nearly as much for his Attack and Defense).

I might House Rule a reduced point cost if the caster is going to stick to only a certain number of powers (like, say, one Talent tree in Blue Rose) -- so, say a player could pay 3 points to be a decent caster (eventual +15) in anything he learns, or a great caster (+20 eventually) that can only learn ESP-kinda stuff.

Would you just mark that all feats can be learned by all classes (with the exception of Powers not being available to people without casting levels)?
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Postby langeweile » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:03 am

1cp => 1 feat is well ok. 1 feat => 1 cp isn't possible ;-)
and some might just feel ok for more feats, as the don't tend to might that much anyway.

no problems with powers - without caster level, you couldn't have powers anyway. or maybe could take wild talent (thats what it is for).
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Postby Tim Gray » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:13 pm

If you want to make it classless just have everyone be an Expert and open the feat lists.
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Postby wubles » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:39 pm

stareyes wrote:One critique -- I don't really like the option of exchanging feats for character points, since I think this kinda shortchanges the matter. With a feat, you could get +2 to a save (with a CP, you can get an eventual +6) or +1 to Attack/Defense (as opposed to +5 from CP). I also like the fact that this allows for partial casters, though the sticker shock on full casting was a mite surprising (until I did the math and realized that a fighter paid nearly as much for his Attack and Defense).


You can't exchange feats for character points, just character points for feats. It works this way because in True20, the warrior has an extra feat and one less save/skill than he could have.

stareyes wrote:I might House Rule a reduced point cost if the caster is going to stick to only a certain number of powers (like, say, one Talent tree in Blue Rose) -- so, say a player could pay 3 points to be a decent caster (eventual +15) in anything he learns, or a great caster (+20 eventually) that can only learn ESP-kinda stuff.


Might be fair :) I was thinking of shifting the 1/2 to 0 so everyone could cast something, or alternatively give everyone 0/0/0/0/0/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5 for free

stareyes wrote:Would you just mark that all feats can be learned by all classes (with the exception of Powers not being available to people without casting levels)?


Yep :)


langeweile wrote:...btw: you could use html tables


But I am an htmnoob :\


Edit: Err, actually, that should be 0/0/0/1/1/1/1/2/2/2/2/3/3/3/3/4/4/4/4/5


Also, another way to make the characters more customizeable is give 6 points every level and choose then how you want to improve :) The only problem there is the way that true20 handles skills each level...
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:41 am

I have a question:
how do you manage the fact that somebody can change his "skill point per level" from level to level ?
And what is a skill point ? A true20 skill or a DD3E skill rank ?

Also I imagine I add the bonus coming from the "caster level".
If I take 4 levels as fair caster and 2 levels as good caster I end up with a +6 casting bonus.

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Postby wubles » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:48 am

Warzen wrote:I have a question:
how do you manage the fact that somebody can change his "skill point per level" from level to level ?
And what is a skill point ? A true20 skill or a DD3E skill rank ?


You don't change your 'skill point per level', you give yourself 2, 4, 6, 8, etc. skills known, per true20 rules. If you're just making up your character's stat progression at character creation, in fact, you can completely ignore the skill table, since any points you don't spend will go to feats, which includes the +2 skills known feat. It works fine.


It breaks apart, however, if you let characters change their attack bonus, saving throws, etc. progression at each level. In such a case, you'd either need to a) change the amount of points given for each level, as well as the number of starting feats b) have any points used for skills at character creation become unusable, even at higher levels or c) have it so characters gain a number of skill points per level, as per normal D20 rules...

Also, in such a system, I would not allow unspent character points past level 1 to become feats. Hmm...

Warzen wrote:Also I imagine I add the bonus coming from the "caster level".
If I take 4 levels as fair caster and 2 levels as good caster I end up with a +6 casting bonus.

W.


0+1+1+1+1+1= a +5 bonus, but anyway, those 'caster levels' are wrong for true20. 'Good' progression should be 4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/22/23, and 'Poor' should be 2/2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7/7/8/8/9/9/10/10/11/11, like normal d20 skills and cross-class d20 skills. Remember, your skill in magic in True20 is treated the same way as skills. I still need to figure out what 'Fair' should be like...

Edit: 'Fair' would be 3/3/4/5/6/6/7/8/9/9/10/11/12/12/13/14/15/15/16/17


Anyway, it looks like theres a little bit of confusion to how this thing works, should I do a little tutorial for you all, go through character creation and what not? :)
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:29 am

wubles wrote:Anyway, it looks like theres a little bit of confusion to how this thing works, should I do a little tutorial for you all, go through character creation and what not? :)


May be you should but first you need to find a way for your system to work with "multiclassing".

A PC can start with a warior oriented career and switch to a more expert oriented or adept oriented one.
In True20 this would affect his choice of feats and the number of skill available.

May be the good way to deal with skill in your classless system is to reintroduce skill ranks...

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Postby Warbringer » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:07 am

Nice.

But, I'd prefer to see a system that if I take poor (at a cost of 0) there is no gain, unlike your system (and to be fair d20).

A Wizard does not necessarily learn combat, so there is really no reason for a 20th poor combat Wizard to be as accomplished as a 10th level good combat fighter
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Postby Stareyes » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:00 am

Eh, I've seen the argument both ways -- it is a D&D thing, a bit, since a Commoner (a 0-point class and assumed to be a 'normal nonhero') still has an attack and save progression, as well as a few skills. A bit of the idea that level = general awesomeness and that even a wizard (poor combat progression) has enough awesomeness to fight a bit. Also most people would probably put down enough points to get the minimum progression -- the same way most players will try for at least a 0 in stats (though I did have several people with negative stats in my BR game, and one with a -3).

You could easily change it by giving everyone 5 more points, and then raising the costs for the combat and save progressions by 1 each (or 6 and throwing skills into this as well).
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Postby Strand0 » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:12 pm

Warbringer wrote:A Wizard does not necessarily learn combat, so there is really no reason for a 20th poor combat Wizard to be as accomplished as a 10th level good combat fighter
:roll:
Well, he may have killed a lot of stuff without magic during the adventures that got him/her to 20th level.
Think about it... :green:
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