True20: lethal enough ?

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True20: lethal enough ?

Postby Warzen » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:38 am

Do you fell True20 is lethal enough ?

I ask you because after my first reading I tought I had to decrease the lethality of the game, then after the character creation session we had a test combat: 4 PCs vs 4 PCs.
It took nearly 30 minutes for one team to down one PC in the other team, even with some players not using conviction point.

All PCs were 6 level and had moderate to heavy "fighter" concept.

At the moment I'm wondering wether I should double all damages or put toughness save at 20+ dmg instead of 15 + dmg.

Also I feel that to PCs have already too much conviction. May be I'll take M&M2 road where they start with 1 and can only get new one in specific case.

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Postby langeweile » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:13 am

mind to post some sample stats ?

but i personally would say, i can't see how - even m&m fights with uber def- & toughness guys didn't last that long.

but ploring to full pools of conviction, of course, lengthens things.
but equal characters should hit one another on a regular basis, and with the accumulating hurt results, there should be some going down sooner or not-so-later ;-)
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Postby Tim Gray » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:48 am

Seems pretty lethal to me so far.
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Postby Warzen » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:46 am

Most fighters are using the usual +2 str, dex, con build but most lowered strenght to boost another stat.

Even with weapon focus, the use of a large makes the defense better than defense so they have about 40 to 45% to hit the ennemy.

Nearly all were using scale mail or chain mails. I advised them to take at least one feat per 5 level dedicated to a toughtness bonus.
The net result was a usual +7 or +8 toughness bonus. A longsword (a weapon of choice for them) is +3 for a DC of 18 (+strenght bonus).

Believe me, it took quite a while to settle the fight...

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Postby langeweile » Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:23 pm

tried finesse attack ?
tried extra effort ?
tried some feats for enhancing parry ?
... ... ...

if all fighters are build defensivly, fight defensivly, don't take risks, full conviction at start and screw strength for dex, etc etc... fights actually tend to take long.
but even with a +8 tough vs a dc18 safe, there's a 50% chance of taking dmg.
and don't forget things lake ranged, powers, etc in the complete equation...

your example, to me, is not very examplary and rather time-wise worthed case.
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Postby Eternalknight » Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:27 pm

So far, in generally, our groups fights have been short and bloody :)
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Postby Wrathx » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:32 am

I dont see how that was possible.. we did an entire dungeon in 4 hours with about 10 combats.

But, If you want it more lethal I would suggest raising the DC from 15 to 18 if you feel people arent getting killed.

I still dont see how no one died, most of the time when I did PC vs PC people died in the first blow or two.
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:52 am

Wrathx wrote:I dont see how that was possible.. we did an entire dungeon in 4 hours with about 10 combats.

But, If you want it more lethal I would suggest raising the DC from 15 to 18 if you feel people arent getting killed.


That was my conclusion. Either 18 or 20 or doubling the weapon damage (+2 for a dagger, +6 for a long sword, +10 for a to handed sword).

Wrathx wrote:I still dont see how no one died, most of the time when I did PC vs PC people died in the first blow or two.


Really ? Where they first level ? As I said most of my 5 level PCs have aroung +7 or +8 in toughness. With a good defense they are not often strucked and they can easily manage the toughness save.
I also find Conviction recovery is too fast.

With +7 toughness an crossbow bolt is a cosmetic damage half the time it hits !!

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Postby langeweile » Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:17 am

again - look above. it think your laboraty work is far from real situations...
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:25 am

langeweile wrote:again - look above. it think your laboraty work is far from real situations...


It's not laboratory work, it's real situation from actual play sessions.

And please explain me how a crossbow bold that deals +3 dmg is dangerous for somebody with a +7 toughness bonus.

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Postby Stareyes » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:48 am

A +3 crossbow will give a damage save of 18, which is a little better than even of hurting the PC. Now, keep in mind, if you are just firing this in a round, you aren't really aiming that well, so the results could easily represent grazing wounds, shooting painful-yet-nonlethal areas like the hands or feet or limbs, hitting the opponent's armor and not the opponent, and so on.

Perhaps, if you are frustrated by this, you could let Aiming also let the PCs increase the damage bonus of their attacks, or let them take a penalty to attacks to get a damage bonus (it's harder to hit a vital area, but it's more likely to incapacitate the opponent). I wouldn't do it 1/1, but I'm sure there's some way you could handle it. [/i]
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:59 am

Stareyes wrote:A +3 crossbow will give a damage save of 18, which is a little better than even of hurting the PC. Now, keep in mind, if you are just firing this in a round, you aren't really aiming that well, so the results could easily represent grazing wounds, shooting painful-yet-nonlethal areas like the hands or feet or limbs, hitting the opponent's armor and not the opponent, and so on.

Perhaps, if you are frustrated by this, you could let Aiming also let the PCs increase the damage bonus of their attacks, or let them take a penalty to attacks to get a damage bonus (it's harder to hit a vital area, but it's more likely to incapacitate the opponent). I wouldn't do it 1/1, but I'm sure there's some way you could handle it. [/i]


I like your idea about aiming giving the ability to do more damage, even if this is already included in finesse attack.

Still the crossbow bolt was just an example, a good one considering how deadly crossbow were, but just an example.

When I first read the rules I tought the fights would be lethal, now after playing few session I find the fights far too DDish...
I have to rely on big monsters (big str, big dmg) to endanger my PCs.

The minions rules just make this problem even worse (yes, I could remove this rule but the fights will then be very boring).

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Postby Stareyes » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:09 am

Tactics might also help -- for example, see the Combined Attacks action. If the opponents know one PC only uses melee attacks, have them at least think of a way to take him down at range. If there are a lot of them, have them all rush one person and Combine Attack. Have them use trickery and guile -- this is one reason I prefer intelligent opponents (plus, it allows the players to use non-combat options as well).
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:51 am

Sure. I have noticed the "kobold factor" of skeleton in true20. :)

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Postby DnDChick » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:39 pm

Someone with a +7 Toughness has to roll 11 or better to avoid all damage from an attack from a crossbow (15 base +3 damage).

Your players consistently rolled 11 or better on Toughness saves?

Wish I could roll that good. lol

(Honestly not being snarky or sarcastic ... I just roll really, really badly ... :))
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:43 pm

DnDChick wrote:Someone with a +7 Toughness has to roll 11 or better to avoid all damage from an attack from a crossbow (15 base +3 damage).

Your players consistently rolled 11 or better on Toughness saves?


No, I just run out of monsters before their luck leaves them... >:)

Still being able to resist all damage 50% of the time (from a bolt) is too much fore me.

DnDChick wrote:Wish I could roll that good. lol

(Honestly not being snarky or sarcastic ... I just roll really, really badly ... :))


Use conviction, the recovery of one CP per day is really a lot.

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Postby DnDChick » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:15 pm

No, I just run out of monsters before their luck leaves them...


If they failed *some* Toughness saves, even by a small margin, they are Hurt and any future Toghness saves are penalized by -1. That penalty is cumulative. That wasn't taking them down either?
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Postby Warzen » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:30 pm

DnDChick wrote:
No, I just run out of monsters before their luck leaves them...


If they failed *some* Toughness saves, even by a small margin, they are Hurt and any future Toghness saves are penalized by -1. That penalty is cumulative. That wasn't taking them down either?


Not really. When we ran our fake fight, they usually resisted everything or on rare occasion missed enough to be wounded. For now I nerver saw a PC with more than 2 "hurts". Remember that when fighting each other they usually had only 40 to 45% to hit their opponent.

During real fights the few really bad rolls were instantly reversed by conviction.

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Postby FickleGM » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:39 am

I do find that this is very easily remedied by sliding the saving throw base, but I like the damage/toughness rules as they are.

I find that the rules make it much more likely for a crossbow bolt to take out a PC than it would be in D&D, but it is still more likely yet that the PC survives. This increases the deadliness without making it too dangerous (I want the fear to be there, not the body count - in D&D I would know for a fact that your shot will not drop me, but in True20 that isn't a fact).

If you want the body count, put the base toughness difficulty at 18 or 20 plus damage.
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Postby Wrathx » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:27 pm

I agree with fickle that is the easiest way to scale difficulty

also, you can use the finesse aattack option to avoid the toughness bonus of the armor. where your players doing that?
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Postby Warzen » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:33 pm

Wrathx wrote:also, you can use the finesse aattack option to avoid the toughness bonus of the armor. where your players doing that?


No. They already had only 40 to 45% of hit chance. They didn't want to reduce by another 20 to 30%.

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Postby Wrathx » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:40 pm

did they try to do sue the Combined Attack mechanic or try using situations to gain conditional modifiers to attack rolls?
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Postby Warzen » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:25 am

Wrathx wrote:did they try to do sue the Combined Attack mechanic or try using situations to gain conditional modifiers to attack rolls?


No. I'll advertise the combined attack mechanic. Honestly I found the rule badly written in true20 and only understood it while reading M&M2 last week-end (english is a foreign language for me).

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