An Interesting Observation

[FickleGM]

Ok...

Well, while I have no interest in Blue Rose (but am not against it), I am very happy with True20. I am not sure who really deserves the thanks for True20 or for this forum, so I will just thank all parties concerned (if you had a part in this Nisarg, thank you).

[arkham618]

Well, The True20 boards were created thanks to me. It was directly MY lobbying on the Blue Rose forums that led them to open these boards. So you wouldn't be here posting if it wasn't for me.
Likewise, I was one of the loudest advocates, and the earliest, for the viability of True20 outside of Blue Rose. I had (correctly) predicted that not only would True20 be viable as a seperate game, but that it would actually be far more popular than Blue Rose.

So, you're welcome.

RPGPundit

*banging pots loudly* You are so smart! You are so smart! S-M-R-T! I mean, S-M-A-R-T!

[skywalker]

Anyone else, apparently, except the folks at Green Ronin and the swine at the Blue Rose forums.

Careful Nisarg. As someone who still posts on the BR forums, your comment is an unnecessary personal attack. I ask that you stop it.

[arkham618]

Anyone else, apparently, except the folks at Green Ronin and the swine at the Blue Rose forums.

Careful Nisarg. As someone who still posts on the BR forums, your comment is an unnecessary personal attack. I ask that you stop it.

Let him applaud himself, skywalker. He'll either get a free copy of True20, or he'll get banned.

[skywalker]

Anyone else, apparently, except the folks at Green Ronin and the swine at the Blue Rose forums.

Careful Nisarg. As someone who still posts on the BR forums, your comment is an unnecessary personal attack. I ask that you stop it.

Let him applaud himself, skywalker. He'll either get a free copy of True20, or he'll get banned.

I have no problem with him applauding himself or his triumph. I love True 20 as much as BR. I don't see why it is necessary to insult GR (who have made his triumph happen) or the BR forumites in the process.

[reverend keith]

After reading posts like this, I feel nothing but sympathy for the folks working at Green Ronin. With fans like this, who would want to work in a publishing company?

[skywalker]

:roll:

After reading posts like this, I feel nothing but sympathy for the folks working at Green Ronin. With fans like this, who would want to work in a publishing company?

Unfortunately, the RPG market is particualrly rife with this type of thing. I think it has something to do with the niche nature of the industry, but people can't seem to praise one thing without destroying another. Many RPGers have high and often contradictory expectations such as wanting the books as soon as possible and as cheap as possible whilst being errata free. This is the sort of thing that has driven several of our better RPG designers away to much easier and more lucrative markets such as computer gaming.

[reverend keith]

Do you consider that the only appropriate form of fandom toward a games company is total and absolute simpering sycophancy?

Feel free to shine on you crazy diamond, but I personally believe there is a wide spectrum between black and white.

[PeelSeel2]

Woot!! Woot!!

[Bhikku]

I don't want to argue too much with Nisarg here, because there were a few kind of nasty posts on the BR forums for a while... but my impression was not that the Blue Rose players wanted a 'dumping ground' to let them get back to 'important' things; rather, some folks seemed to be tired of Blue Rose setting-specific topics getting hijacked by Nisarg's anti-Aldis arguments; and the fact that Nisarg more than once said that if he had a True20-specific forum to work in, he wouldn't be pestering them anymore.

So rather than simply focusing on mechanic-specific, setting-neutral threads or starting more such threads, he seemed bent on holding everybody else's conversations hostage until he got what he wanted. To that degree, there were comments to the effect that GR should be kind enough to give him the space he desired so as to leave everyone else in peace. I'll admit there may have been some darker muttering than that, but generally the fans of the Blue Rose setting were interested in continuing to focus and that setting and the game, and wanted to get back to that rather than having threads derailed by someone who was supposedly not interested in that setting.

Compare that to posters such as Skywalker, who started a few different threads regarding the specifics of game mechanics, including critical examinations of the combat and Toughness systems, without feeling the need to add inflammatory comments to unrelated threads. (I have no idea how Skywalker regards the setting of Blue Rose - if he has commented, it seems to have been quietly and politely enough so as not to stand out in my memory.)

As for Nisarg's claim to have opened up a goldmine that GR was overlooking - I cannot dispute that Nisarg has vocally championed the system widely and enthusiastically, and may well have been extremely helpful in spreading the news of the True 20 system & PDF; I will even assume that outside the Blue Rose forums he would have exercised the consideration and self-restraint to focus on the system as a good thing without bothering to bash the setting (e.g., "If you aren't a fan of the setting, don't ignore the system" as opposed to "Look, the setting is crap but the system is worth looking at"). Otherwise, to whatever degree Nisarg's claims to have brought about the popularity of True 20 might be coupled with concern that his vigorously colored depictions of Blue Rose & the Aldea setting might have hampered sales of the product (even among people who might find the game pleasant and enjoyable rather than a crypto-fascist nightmare if they'd read the book rather than Nisarg's messages). But that is sheer speculation.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly, it was well over a week before this forum opened that discussion on the Blue Rose forum had identified True 20 as the system name and as a rules set that in theory could be applied to other games - I can't quite believe this was a Nisarg innovation that nobody else had considered at all. The fact that GR was at the time claiming that the system was intended just for that game is likely just a fact of the publishing business - they would undoubtedly have wanted to see how sales for that product did in a vacuum, without the complication of another (as-yet unwritten) game being considered in the minds of gamers/potential customers. The idea of the rule set being published without a setting may indeed have first been voiced by Nisarg - i wouldn't doubt that somebody at GR had such a thought, but since a popular setting-free fantasy gaming ruleset or two already exist, it might well have been considered a dead end if not for such outspoken fans as Nisarg - I have to grant that much. I do believe that if Nisarg had remained polite and constructive, while still being an outspoken fan, the rule system as we know it would have come about, though possibly taking a little more time than it did in the end (as the publishers might have waited longer for customer feedback indicating the value of the venture - the early 'budding off' of this forum certainly helped that feedback become obvious faster).

However, come to think of it, the rule system as we know it might not have come into existance - since many of the differences between True 20 and Blue Rose were first publically proposed by Skywalker, I believe, over in the Blue Rose forums. Great discussions happened in a handful of threads regarding how combat played out at various levels with stats switched around, the idea of a single 'combat' progression rather than dividing attack and defense, the elimination of toughness progression and the switching of armor to be a Toughness modifier rather than a Defense modifier - as i recall, those all arose in Skywalker's threads. Not that he has ever claimed credit for that, as far as I know - the only comment I saw Skywalker make was to the effect that GR had thought along the same lines, rather than "they owe me something."

I guess what I'm saying is that Nisarg can nominate himself for all the recognition and freebies he likes - and to be fair, his efforts were undoubtedly a big help in convincing GR that the investment and effort of making True 20 as its own game would be worthwhile, even though he apparently felt it necessary to antagonize other players and otherwise conduct himself in an unbecoming fashion in the process. I'm afraid that I'm not very impressed.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, mind. I just think that some of Nisarg's characterizations of the forum conflicts could stand one or two additional perspectives, for the benefit of any forumites here who didn't see it happen for themselves. I would certainly regard with welcome any additional views on this topic.

On a related note, I would like like to nominate Skywalker for some measure of recognition, however. His system-specific threads appear to have aided True 20's development into a superior game system, one worthy of great attention and many spin-off campaign settings (and of revisions to Blue Rose, which many GMs have already encompassed into their campaigns). Skywalker has always, as far as i've ever seen, conducted his discussions with faultless courtesy to fellow players, and I believe I recall his participation in a number of threads on this forum which have helped me to develop my own house-rules for extending True 20 to other genres (which I sincerely hope will be on GR's agenda as well). And he seems to have always expressed an enthusiasm for the game without feeling the need to create animosity or to insult any aspect of the games, designers, or publishers, although that's frankly the least that ought to be expected of any of us, and not itself a praiseworthy achievement. Taken together, though, I think it's worth some recognition.

[Bhikku]

Well, as long as we're both okay seeing different perspectives on the matter and enjoying the game (and contributing to the forum) nonetheless, I'd say everything's cool. Some personalities clash inevitably.

I have to admit that the Blue Rose forums (I defy the proper latin) have been pretty quiet for a while. I don't know if that's necessarily to do with popularity of the games so much as the fact that a more toolkit-like product will tend to draw a lot more discussion of different campaigns and rule-mods and such things, which is very 'forumesque' if you will, than the Blue Rose-specific conversations tend to be. But at any rate, expanding True 20 beyond just a single game is good no matter how you look at it.

And I guess I didn't see those comments on rpg.net, or if I did I must have read them differently somehow; certainly there were hard feelings generated during that time. I'm still inclined to suggest that they were needlessly provoked - but anyway, that's not the real point here. It looks as if we can at least agree that it's more enjoyable to celebrate the game than argue about other things.

Oh, and by the way: Skywalker, I hope you don't mind my putting you in the spotlight like that. I just really thought you deserved some recognition there.

[Stareyes]

I have to admit that the Blue Rose forums (I defy the proper latin) have been pretty quiet for a while. I don't know if that's necessarily to do with popularity of the games so much as the fact that a more toolkit-like product will tend to draw a lot more discussion of different campaigns and rule-mods and such things, which is very 'forumesque' if you will, than the Blue Rose-specific conversations tend to be. But at any rate, expanding True 20 beyond just a single game is good no matter how you look at it.

That's a good point, Bhikku. Really there are three types of posts made on the GR boards (BR, MM and this one). Rules specific ones on True 20 will go in either the BR forum or here. Aldis-specific posts will go on the BR forum and adaption-specific posts (discussion abotu different settings, posting of settings) will go here.

The ratio of total posts of the two boards depends not only on the number of players and number of active posters, but on the 'chattiness' of the relative topics. For example, on Livejournal I belong to two communities devoted to a particular television show. One is a general community for all fans, the other caters to fans of a specific character. The second gets more posts than the first, not because it has more members (the members there mostly make up a subset of people form the first community), but because the members find more to talk about there.

If I run two BR games and am not experiencing any problems or coming up with anything too innovative, I'm not going to be posting much. However, if I'm adapting a world to True20, I will be posting more for feedback. So it could be likely that I'm playing more BR but talking more on True20, because what little I am doing with True20 requires more discussion (since I am creating more). It seems likely that adaption-type posts are more common than BR-setting post even given similar numbers of gamers in both settings.

So now we consider the rules. One might think that since these posts are on-topic for both forums, they would be a good measure of forum activity. However, there are other factors. For example, most of the early True20 players were Blue Rose players, so asked all their rules questions there. Similarly, if someone wanted to discuss the rules and belongs to both forums, they would make a decision as to where to post. Furthermore, if one game can attract gamers with less experience with tabletop/d20/damage save systems/etc., there will be more questions on that forum.

Overall, I would say that if we wanted to measure the sucess of Blue Rose versus True 20, forum posts are a tad too variable for my tastes as a way to do it.

Actually, overall I'd say you've raised some excellent points, Bhikku.

[JongWK]

Overall, I would say that if we wanted to measure the sucess of Blue Rose versus True 20, forum posts are a tad too variable for my tastes as a way to do it.

Well, given that these are Green Ronin's official forums (yay for misspelling), and that there are few -if any- other ways to measure BR/True20, I think we *can* consider it a valid method. It might not be 100% scientifically sound, yes, but it works. I'm all ears (er, eyes) to other measuring methods, of course.

[Stareyes]

Well, we could perhaps develop a baseline relative to other situations -- how well True20 compares to other setting-agnostic games, and how well Blue Rose does to other fantasy setting games. Comparing True20 to Blue Rose seems like comparing apples to oranges (or Tristat dX to Silver Age Sentinels, to use another gaming company's products).

Actually that would be a good way to find a baseline (or at least see if we can develop an idea of how well setting-specific games do compared to setting-free games with regards to generating discussion) -- look at other companies. If we see that setting-adaption posts are more common than setting-specific posts regardless of popularity of the system versus the setting, then we can say that the fact True20 has a higher post rate to Blue Rose doesn't mean anything unless we can develop a relationship between the setting-interested/setting-uninterested ratio and the post rate of setting-adaption setting-discussion post.

And now I see why I shouldn't type up posts while taking a take-home science exam.

[JongWK]

Well, we could perhaps develop a baseline relative to other situations -- how well True20 compares to other setting-agnostic games, and how well Blue Rose does to other fantasy setting games. Comparing True20 to Blue Rose seems like comparing apples to oranges (or Tristat dX to Silver Age Sentinels, to use another gaming company's products).

Yes and no. Yes, they're different types of books if you are thinking that way, but both of them are still core rulebooks.

In any case, it is not relevant to this particular topic. If it was indeed argued that True20 was Blue Rose-specific, then the post activity generated by this True20-specific forum does counter that argument.

However, I submit that the best way to know the truth would be checking the sales figures. I doubt Green Ronin will publish these numbers, as most RPG companies do not do so. The best estimate I can give you right now would be Green Ronin's Hot Sellers List at RPGnow.com:

Green Ronin's Hot Sellers List:
1. True20 Adventure Roleplaying
2. Book of Fiends
3. Blue Rose Companion
4. Thieves' World Player's Manual
5. Blue Rose - The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy


Now, if we check the RPGnow.com's general Best-Selling lists, we get the following results:

Top Selling Products Lists:

All Categories - This Month (Top 100)
8. True20 Adventure Roleplaying (Green Ronin)
64. Blue Rose Companion (Green Ronin)

(The core Blue Rose book is not listed in this month's Top 100)

All Categories - All Time (Top 100)
24. True20 Adventure Roleplaying (Green Ronin)
56. Blue Rose - The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy (Green Ronin)


Further analysis is somewhat hampered by the fact that Blue Rose is listed as a D20 RPG, while True20 is listed as Non D20. Oddly enough, Blue Rose Companion is also listed as Non D20.

Non-D20 RPG - This Month
1. True20 Adventure Roleplaying (Green Ronin)
15. Blue Rose Companion (Green Ronin)

Non-D20 RPG - All Time
2. True20 Adventure Roleplaying (Green Ronin)

(Blue Rose Companion is not listed in the Top 100)

D20 RPG - This Month
81. Blue Rose - The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy (Green Ronin)

D20 RPG - All Time
40. Blue Rose - The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy (Green Ronin)

I hope the numbers speak for themselves.

[cynic_devine]

A couple of things....

Just because the True D20 forum is getting more traffic does not mean it is more popular. Actually in my area, Blue Rose is the most popular GR product seeing actual play offline. I know of two groups playing it weekly & no group that I know are using any other GR products. Granted this is no reflection of anywhere else besides my home area. I honestly can't say which is more popular then the other, such questions are difficult to answer.

Also, defining what is more popular is difficult to begin with. Is it just based on sales or actual use in play? D20 leads the market in both & therefore is obviously the more popular rpg around. Apparently True D20 is selling more then Blue Rose & therefore True D20 is good business for GR & that is great. Many of us argued for True D20. I know I did & I several others did as well.

Now frankly this sort of thread seems...well, a little childish to me. The whole "haha my game is better then yours & see I was right" kinda business.

Obviously no single person deserves the credit for True D20 (a true list of those responsible would have to go all the way back to Gygax & crew, as well as, Moorcock, Tolkien, & Vance). Nisarg did have quite a bit to do with the opening of the forums & deserves some credit for that. Green Ronin deserves quite a bit of credit for hosting the forums, actually opening them, & producing the quality products they do.

True D20 has a lot of potential, anyone who failed to see that was (or is) wrong. The fact that this forum is a vibrant active sort of place is a testament to this. Blue Rose is a good game & let us not forget True D20 is an outgrowth of Blue Rose after all.

[JongWK]

Also, defining what is more popular is difficult to begin with. Is it just based on sales or actually use in play?

The world we all live in measures a product's popularity by actual sales mainly. I also expect Green Ronin to measure their products' success the same way.

Now frankly this sort of thread seems...well, a little childish to me. The whole "haha my game is better then yours & see I was right" kinda business.

I never said that, only posted information on sales after someone (Stareyes) asked about them. One could hardly call that taking sides.

[timemrick]

[deleted by poster]