No really, how does damage work?

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No really, how does damage work?

Postby Tim Gray » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:40 am

The revised text seems to imply more strongly that you can take multiple wounds (and dazed), without actually stating it clearly. Is that correct? It didn't seem to be in the previous version.

The new one removes the tickboxes from Wounded and Dazed on the tracks, and talks about penalties persisting till all wounds are removed. But the lethal damage description on p76 still says that you can't have more than one wounded result.
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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby Steve Kenson » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:11 am

Tim Gray wrote:The revised text seems to imply more strongly that you can take multiple wounds (and dazed). Is that correct?

Yes, it is.
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Postby SquidFisher » Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:53 am

Really, the way the damage system in True20 is explained is my only problem with the ruleset (apart from the misaligned borders in the revised pdf - grr! ;)). It's unclear at best, confusing at worst, which is sad because it is - at heart - a simple enough way of doing things once you actually figure out what the writers are talking about.
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Postby Tim Gray » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:02 pm

Steve Kenson wrote:
Tim Gray wrote:The revised text seems to imply more strongly that you can take multiple wounds (and dazed). Is that correct?

Yes, it is.

Thanks Steve. Obviously that text I quoted is an error then.

I guess we can run it whichever way we want anyway.

If I'm reading it right, the only effect of taking additional wounds is extra healing time - the penalty stays at -2. Plus, of course, a round of lost action each time.
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Postby poltah » Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:31 am

What?

The way I read it, if you are wounded and gets any additional damage, you become the next step on the damage chart.

Is that wrong?

Isn't it only bruised and hurt where you just get more and more hurt, and more and more bruised?
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Postby Tim Gray » Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:49 am

poltah wrote:What?

The way I read it, if you are wounded and gets any additional damage, you become the next step on the damage chart.

Is that wrong?

Isn't it only bruised and hurt where you just get more and more hurt, and more and more bruised?

That was my question, because I saw signs for both directions! What you say is certainly the way I read it in the previous version of the PDF, dismissing a couple of conflicting mentions, but in the most recent version it seemed more like you could have multiple Wounds (which Steve has now confirmed). That section really needs more work.
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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby skywalker » Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:17 pm

Steve Kenson wrote:
Tim Gray wrote:The revised text seems to imply more strongly that you can take multiple wounds (and dazed). Is that correct?

Yes, it is.


Wow! That's really cool, though I also looked straight past it.

The Damage section needs a serious overhaul before the print True 20 version. It still has several ommissions from the original Blue Rose that still haven't been fixed and with these changes there are some more inconsistencies.

If you take a second Wounded do you mark down a Wounded or Disabled? The text says Disabled but this suggest the former. If the former does the -2 penalty cumulate?
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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby wulf » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:00 pm

skywalker wrote:If you take a second Wounded do you mark down a Wounded or Disabled? The text says Disabled but this suggest the former. If the former does the -2 penalty cumulate?

Page 76 Lethal Damage para 2 says Wounded only imposes a -1 (another change from Blue Rose). That, however, makes me wonder why there are different totals for Wounded & Hurt at all (or Dazed & Bruised), if all of them only impose a -1 to Toughnes rolls.

The whole section needs a re-write.

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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby Tim Gray » Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:07 pm

wulf wrote:
skywalker wrote:If you take a second Wounded do you mark down a Wounded or Disabled? The text says Disabled but this suggest the former. If the former does the -2 penalty cumulate?

Page 76 Lethal Damage para 2 says Wounded only imposes a -1 (another change from Blue Rose). That, however, makes me wonder why there are different totals for Wounded & Hurt at all (or Dazed & Bruised), if all of them only impose a -1 to Toughnes rolls.

Ah, no. It mentions in those stupidly dense blocks that Wounded and Dazed give a -1 to further Toughness saves. (Personally, I plan to ignore this as it seems like extra unnecessary fiddliness.)

On the following page where the conditions are explained in detail, it makes no mention of the Toughness penalty, but it does explain that the effect of Wounded is -2 on all rolls (except Toughness saves). It implies that this is a flat penalty regardless of how many Wounds you take; further levels would just give you another round of being inactive with poor defence.

If there are multiple Wounds the only way you'd get Disabled would be by actually failing your save to that degree. Presumably even accumulated non-lethal damage would pile up as Wounds.

I should say that I only started to get a handle on all this after looking at Bhikku's GM cheat sheet (see other thread) and relating the sumary back to the text.
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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby skywalker » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:13 am

Tim Gray wrote:If there are multiple Wounds the only way you'd get Disabled would be by actually failing your save to that degree. Presumably even accumulated non-lethal damage would pile up as Wounds.


That is my understanding. That is why it is important that Wounded adds a penalty of -1 to Toughness, so multiple Wounds make Disabled more likely.
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Postby Bhikku » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:56 pm

Wow, this is a pretty radical change. Some further clarification would be much appreciated, definitely. (This is going to call for some changes on my homemade character sheet, and probably the GM cheatsheet i've been sharing, too.)

I really hope this is fully cleared up by the time the print edition comes out, because i've been treating Wound as just a single box.

I also want to make sure: woudl that mean there's multiple Dazed as well? And if Wound effects Toughness rolls, will Dazed affect 'em for nonlethal like Bruised does?
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Re: No really, how does damage work?

Postby skywalker » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:08 pm

Steve Kenson wrote:
Tim Gray wrote:The revised text seems to imply more strongly that you can take multiple wounds (and dazed). Is that correct?

Yes, it is.


Bhikku, looking at this response I would say that there are multiple dazed conditions also. This is supported by the character sheet change.

How this actually works is still up in the air until Steve or another one of the GR crew clarifies the situation.
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Postby FickleGM » Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:39 pm

Bhikku wrote:Wow, this is a pretty radical change. Some further clarification would be much appreciated, definitely. (This is going to call for some changes on my homemade character sheet, and probably the GM cheatsheet i've been sharing, too.)

I really hope this is fully cleared up by the time the print edition comes out, because i've been treating Wound as just a single box.

I also want to make sure: woudl that mean there's multiple Dazed as well? And if Wound effects Toughness rolls, will Dazed affect 'em for nonlethal like Bruised does?


Note that the modified version of your cheat sheet that I made available assumes multiple wounded conditions are possible (dazed doesn't mention either way on the sheet, but I play it as if multiple dazed conditions are possible).

Also, the PDF mentions on page 76 that a Dazed condition does indeed impose a -1 penalty to saves versus non-lethal damage. Unfortunately, this is the same page that states that a second Wounded condition would become a Disabled (contradicting the wording for a Wounded condition on the subsequent two pages).

I would rule that a Dazed condition would impose a -1 penalty to saves versus non-lethal damage per Dazed condition (although I did not put that on the cheat sheet - EDIT: I just added verbiage to the sheet for this and uploaded it so that it is the one that I link to on the other thread).
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Postby Nomad4life » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:39 pm

Man, I hope this gets cleared up soon. I guess I made a lot of assumptions about True20 damage based on what I know about Blue Rose. When I look back over the rules “in a vacuum” they are rather open to a number of interpretations… Which is not good if this was unintentional!
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Postby skywalker » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:48 pm

I emailed Steve Kenson. I hope he finds the time to answer too.
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Postby Warbringer » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:43 am

T20 page 76

If a target suffers a result that is already checked off, check off the next highest result, so if a target is already wounded and suffers another wounded result, check off the disabled box. If that’s already checked off, check off the dying box.


Seems pretty clear
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Postby FickleGM » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:13 am

Warbringer wrote:T20 page 76

If a target suffers a result that is already checked off, check off the next highest result, so if a target is already wounded and suffers another wounded result, check off the disabled box. If that’s already checked off, check off the dying box.


Seems pretty clear


That is exactly the source of confusion, for on the next two pages the descriptions for Wounded make it pretty clear that multiple wounded conditions can be inflicted (wound track on the next page and on the character sheet also leave it open for multiple Wounded/Dazed conditions).

So, it appears that we have contradicting verbiage. I am in favor of the multiple Wounded conditions and it appears from previous posts that is the direction that True20 is supposed to convey.
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Postby wulf » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:04 am

Warbringer wrote:T20 page 76

If a target suffers a result that is already checked off, check off the next highest result, so if a target is already wounded and suffers another wounded result, check off the disabled box. If that’s already checked off, check off the dying box.


Seems pretty clear

But the Wounded condition does not mention being 'checked off', it instead says it's 'marked down'. Disabled & Dying are specified as being 'checked off'. The wording used is very specific, and does seem to clearly state that multiple Wounded conditions are possible, and that a second one does not turn into a Disabled result.

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Postby Seeker of Truth » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:19 am

I do not have the recently updated pdf, but I have played in Blue Rose and have the older pdf. According to both of those, if my memory serves me right, you can get multiple Bruised and Hurt conditions for failing lethal and non lethal Toughness saves by 0-4. The other damage conditions were on time only things though.

But now, if I understand right, you can also take as many Wounded for lethal and Dazed for non-lethal hits as you want? If the penalties for Wounded stack, this shouldn't be TOO big a deal, but if they do not, all it does is make failing by 5-9 essentially a free hit, except for losing a round. So after being wounded, if I'm hit again resulting in a similar wound, I only am unable to act for a few seconds. This doesn't make much sense to me. But since it appears that the Toughness penalty from wounded is smaller, the stacking penalties does make a lot of sense, making wounded simply a really bad version of Hurt.

Until an official ruling by someone like Steve is made, I'm gonna assume it stacks.
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Postby wulf » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:25 am

Seeker of Truth wrote:Until an official ruling by someone like Steve is made, I'm gonna assume it stacks.

The Toughness save certainly appears to stack (-1 per Wounded condition), but it doesn't look like the -2 to all other rolls does.

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Postby skywalker » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:12 pm

Seeker of Truth wrote:I do not have the recently updated pdf, but I have played in Blue Rose and have the older pdf. According to both of those, if my memory serves me right, you can get multiple Bruised and Hurt conditions for failing lethal and non lethal Toughness saves by 0-4. The other damage conditions were on time only things though.

But now, if I understand right, you can also take as many Wounded for lethal and Dazed for non-lethal hits as you want? If the penalties for Wounded stack, this shouldn't be TOO big a deal, but if they do not, all it does is make failing by 5-9 essentially a free hit, except for losing a round. So after being wounded, if I'm hit again resulting in a similar wound, I only am unable to act for a few seconds. This doesn't make much sense to me. But since it appears that the Toughness penalty from wounded is smaller, the stacking penalties does make a lot of sense, making wounded simply a really bad version of Hurt.

Until an official ruling by someone like Steve is made, I'm gonna assume it stacks.


The new text makes it clear that the Toughness penalty stacks. Its the -2 to other rolls that isn't clear as to whether it stacks or not.
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Postby Warbringer » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:19 pm

OK

I still don't see the confusion. If you are wounded and suffer another wounded you become disabled. Now, you obviously also remain wounded as that was the condition you were at.

On a successful cure you can go back to wounded.

Now, if you immediately go to disabled, you are also wounded.

If I lose 50 hps, I have also suffered 49 hps, 48 hps, etc... not that it has any effect, but are subsets of the condition following.
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Postby FickleGM » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:36 pm

Actually, from what Steve has put forth on this thread, the following is how I see the True20 wound track:

Hurt/Bruised - if hurt/bruised again, simply mark off another Hurt/Bruised and apply a -1 penalty per hurt/bruised/wounded/dazed to subsequent toughness saves (bruised/dazed penalties only apply to non-lethal damage)

Wounded/Dazed - if wounded/dazed again, simply mark off another Wounded/Dazed and apply a -1 penalty per hurt/bruised/wounded/dazed to subsequent toughness saves (bruised/dazed penalties only apply to non-lethal damage)...ALSO, dazed loses one turn (but defends normally) and wounded is stunned for one round and receives a -2 penalty to all rolls except toughness saves (the penalty is -2 regardless of the number of wounded conditions suffered, although it remains until all wounded conditions are removed).

The rest of the non-lethal and lethal damage types only allow one, with subsequent damages of that type resulting in the next higher damage being taken.

No damage results in lower damage types being taken. If you are Disabled, you do not receive a Wounded effect.
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Postby wulf » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:43 pm

FickleGM wrote:Actually, from what Steve has put forth on this thread, the following is how I see the True20 wound track:
<snip>

Agreed. The only problem is the sentence "...if a target is already wounded and suffers another wounded result, check off the disabled box." That would have to be an error for your (and my) interpretation to be correct, a holdover from earlier versions of the rules. We need official confirmation on that.

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