Wheel of Time

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Wheel of Time

Postby dm4hire » Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:58 pm

Well the new book in the series is upon us. There was talk on here or the Blue Rose board about doing Wheel of Time. Did anyone set about making rules for it. If so let me know. I'm thinking hard about using True20 for it as the WotC rules just absolutely bit dirt, though they did have a few good ideas. (Hint to GR: If the liscense is up at WotC this would be a good setting!!!)

:D
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Postby Dork Elf » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:24 am

I want an excuse to do a conversion. I think True20 is the absolute perfect system for a WoT game. I think the channeling ideas in the WotC game had some good aspects. Talents are kinda Blue Rose-ish already so I would probably make channeling quite similar to that game's arcanum system but with WoT-specific weaves, of course. Changing Second Sight a bit to reflect saidar/saidin converting all the weaves would be relatively simple.

I think the prestige classes would be the only strange thing... some of them, like Blademasters, have such specific feat/abilities that I would want to establish some kind of feat pre-req system to simulate how rare they are.

Blue Rose's Corruption system is nearly spot-on for the purposes of misuse of the One Power as well. Man, I really want to do this, but no one I know cares anything about playing a WoT campaign :/
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Postby dm4hire » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:25 am

I'd like to see something done with it as there is so much that has been added to the world since the RPG came out. WotC has has already said that they are not renewing the liscense if I remember correctly. It's been a couple of years.
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Postby Karl Green » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:39 am

This is a cool idea :D

Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time are think are near perfect for Blue Rose/True 20 sort of thing ;) ONE day I will get to run something with the system... but right now, playing Warhammer (WHRPv2) and Iron Kingdom (D&D3.5/Grim Tales)
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Postby Rubio » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am

So would the Channelling system used a weaves/day deal like the d20 version or use fatiguing arcana from t20?

And what about male channeller madness and the fact that they're arbitrarily stronger channellers by and large?
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Channeling

Postby frojas » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:12 am

Couple of thoughts based on observations from the book:

To cast a weave all you need to do is see it being woven. Logain learns some new combat weave from Rand and is able to cast them after seeing them cast once. And anyone in the Rebel Aes Sedai camp that is strong in Earth can create cuendilar.

Though it does seem that some powers (Like balefire) do require a talent to weave them.

Overall I was happy with the way that WoT d20 handled this. You could cast weaves from the talents you knew and some talents where easier to find than others. I would suggest having a feat for each affinity (Earth Affinity feat, Fire Affinity Feat) and a feat for each talent presented in the WoTd20 book. I would add feats like "Strong Earth Affinity," and "Strong Healing Talent" to allow for more variation between channelers. Inverting weaves would also be a feat.

What I wasn't happy with was the Weaves per day in WoT d20. This made Channelers a little too much like standard d20 sorcerors. In New String (the novel) we learn that an Accepted being tested for the Shawl needs to cast 100 required weaves and any number of other weaves as the test requires.

A fatigue system would do best to simulate this feel. With some added rules for channeling while fatigued carrying the potential for burnout. And we would need rules that allow Channelers to create weaves stronger than their normal level (overchanneling).

Strength in the One power: So how do you handle the strength in the one power when we know that some casters are weak and barely able to create a weave (like Morgase) and others incredibly strong (Alivia, the forsaken etc). To handle this I would propose the following: Morgase would probably not have levels in Channeler. Instead she has something like the wild talent feat. PC Channelers would have no limit in the number of levels of the Channeler class that they can take with no caps. NPC Channelers have an artificial cap (the cap would be different from character to character depending on the needs of the story) on their channeling bonus (how this would work needs to be figured out). An NPC might have 20 levels in Channeler but only 10 of them count towards their weave check rolls. An NPC might still want to take levels in Channeler to gain access to feats that require certain levels in Channeler. PC's being PC's would not be subject to this cap (unless the player wanted to be a weak channeler as part of the character story).

Madness and Male's being stronger: So during the time when Saidin is tainted I would give males a small bonus to their channeling checks, and a small bonus to their fatigue rolls (much like the WoT d20 game gave them extra slots). This would make up for the madness. For a madness mechanic I would look at the sutff discussed in WoT d20 and try to adapt it to True20.

When Saidin is free of taint you no longer have the threat of madness to make up for the added strength of male channelers. I would be ok with just making males and females equally strong and ignoring that for the sake of game balance.
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Men vs Women

Postby frojas » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:21 pm

This is from Robert Jordan's blog on dragonmount.com:

"Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree."

So one could get away with rules that make men stronger (except for those that make up for the drawbacks of the taint).
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Postby Dork Elf » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:39 pm

Some good thoughts here.

Talents: I definitely think taking a feat to learn a Talent is a good way to do it, but I would say weaves outside one's known Talents could be learned by seeing it cast (see below), but at lowest rank (4 + Ability).

Learning weaves by seeing them used: I would make this a higher DC usage of Second Sight, which in turn would be an automatic power for channelers. Weaves learned this way would be ranked at half rank + Wis (or relevant ability) rather than full rank. Maybe include a feat that let two or three "learned" weaves operate at full rank as well. Obviously only members of the same sex could learn weaves from each other like this to reflect saidin/saidar. (Second Sight on the whole could be made more flexible to reflect a channeler's awareness when saidin/saidar is embraced, especially in regards to another channler weaving in the areas, ect.)

Affinity: Feats allowing for elemental affinity seems reasonable. I would probably let Affinity grant a bonus to Fatigue checks. If a channeler has an affinity for one element in the weave, maybe a +1, and +2 if they have affinity for at least two elements involved. If that's too small maybe double it?

The above would of course require all weaves to be defined by their elements, as per WoT d20.

I think the Corruption system from Blue Rose could be used almost to the letter in WoT and it could reflect the lure of the Shadow just fine. The effects of corruption could be altered, dropping the stat penalties altogether. The social consequences of becoming more familiar with the darker side of the One Power would be adequate, and embracing corruption rather accurately reflects the strength a channeler could receive from the Dark One.

Converting weaves from d20 to true20 wouldn't be too bad at all. Defining the effects of the elements involved would be a good start I suppose.

Sa'angreals could grant bonuses to Fatigue checks, obviously. The more powerful ones could even raise rank.

About Blademasters and Wardens and the other prestige classes: I would just make their abilities feats that required in-game pre-reqs to be met before they could be taken I guess.

Too tired to think about the specifics of wilders/learned channelers right now tho :P I guess by adapting Wild Talent rules for wilders but a bit less drastic...

Man, I really miss WoT. Such a perfect rp setting.
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Channeling

Postby frojas » Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:41 pm

So we need to work out how casting a weave works. When does fatigue become an issue? Do you get a certain number of weaves to cast before it sets in? Do certain weaves cause fatigue while others don't? Maybe you do not get fatigued if casting in your talents? Fatigue needs to be an issue because its what balances adepts vs warriors and experts.

How are your Channeler Level and your Channeler Stat(should this be Int, Cha, or Wis) used for casting?

Channeling is the big issue for the conversions for the most part. Dreaming and other Talents are best handled as general feats like in the WoT d20 RPG.
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Feats

Postby frojas » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:10 pm

A sample supernatural feat list for WoT True20. I've borrowed shamelessly from WoT d20 and the two netbooks that were made for it.

Affinities:
Air Affinity
Earth Affinity
Fire Affinity
Spirit Affinity
Water Affinity
Strong Air Affinity
Strong Earth Affinity
Strong Fire Affinity
Strong Spirit Affinity
Strong Water Affinity

Talents:
Align the Matrix (Power wrought Items, Cuendilar)
Balefire Talent
Cloud Dancing Talent
Conjunction Talent
Earth Signing Talent
Elemental Talent
Healing Talent
Illusion Talent
Maker Talent (Angreal, So'Angrel, Ter'angreal)
Travelling Talent
Warding Talent

Channeling Feats
Super Strong Shields
Forced (you can overchannel easier)
Sense Saidar (for men)
Quickened Embrace (Embrace as a move action)
Instant Embrace (Embrace as free action)
Combat Casting
Ready Weave (Prepare weaves, can use multiweave to prepare more than one)
Invert Weave
Multi-weave
Power-Heightened Senses (Could be second sight, and given out as a starting channeling feat)
Sense Residue
Tie-off Weave
Weak Channeler (Morgase/Wild Talent Equivalent)
Remove Block
Mental Stability (Reduces madness)
Weave Slicing (ready action to "counterspell")
Improved Slicing (counterspell without readying action) (maybe should be a warding weave)
Unweave
Improved Unweave

Prestige Class Abilities:
Given out by several Prestige Classes:
Control
Resolve
Improved Control
Improved Resolve

Aes Sedai:
Aes Sedai Presence

Ashaman:
Asha'man Presence
Asha'man Combat Casting
Offensive Control
Improved Offensive Control
Improved Asha'man combat casting

Windfinders:
Windfinder Presence
Windfinder Control
Open sky
Improved Windfinder Control
Improved Open Sky

Wise Ones:
Wise One Presence

Lost Abilities (Some require Channeling):
(In general I am not a big fan of the Latent X feats from the WoT d20. But some of these abilities should have prereqs. Old blood is a good example. It gives a lot of benefits so Latent X feats might be called for to balance out really good feats).
Old Blood
Dreamer
Sniffer
Fortelling
Viewing
Identify Ter'Angreal/Sa'angreal/Angreal (requires channeling)
Detect Ta'veren (requires channeling)
Bend Dream
Dream Jump
Dream Walk
Dream Watch
Waking Dream
Tree Warden
Tree Singer
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Re: Channeling

Postby dm4hire » Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:40 pm

frojas wrote:So we need to work out how casting a weave works. When does fatigue become an issue? Do you get a certain number of weaves to cast before it sets in? Do certain weaves cause fatigue while others don't? Maybe you do not get fatigued if casting in your talents? Fatigue needs to be an issue because its what balances adepts vs warriors and experts.

How are your Channeler Level and your Channeler Stat(should this be Int, Cha, or Wis) used for casting?

Channeling is the big issue for the conversions for the most part. Dreaming and other Talents are best handled as general feats like in the WoT d20 RPG.


One thought I had for making a magic system was to design spells so that really powerful spells required stat requirements. This could actually work with True20 really well. Here's an example of how it would work.

Balefire
Fatiguing

Calling upon the one power a Channeler may form a bolt of pure power which burns its victim from the weave of time. The Channeler must succeed at making a ranged touch attack. If successful the target must make a will save to negate, if the save fails the target is erased from history.

Focus: Will 4, Con 3
Burnout: Yes
Fatigue Value: 5
Retry: Yes, but the Channeler suffers double fatigue if this takes them over their Power Rank.
Time: Balefire is a standard action.


Fatigue
A Channeler who calls upon the One Power repeatedly risks becoming fatigued if they call upon the Source too much. A Channeler has a Power Rank which represents how many times within an hour they may call upon the Source without becoming fatigued. This score is determined by adding their Willpower and Constitution. Attempting to continue calling upon the Source once past the Power Rank increases the strain upon the body and mind with each attempt. In addition some weaves are tiring in themselves and therefore have a Fatigue Value assigned to them. The Channeler must make a Fatigue Check to continue calling upon the One Power once they surpass their Power Rank. The difficulty of a Fatigue Check is equal to 10+PR+FV.
A fatigued Channeler must rest at least one hour without calling upon the One Power for each attempt past their Power Rank.

Burnout
A Channeler may call upon the One Power as they see fit, but sometimes they try to call upon too much as they attempt to do weaves beyond thier skill or knowledge. Other times a weave may take a heavy toll upon someone who was not prepared or overtaxed in their channelling. When a Channeler finds themself in this position they risk burning themselves out. A Channeler who burns himself out loses the ability to Channel until they can be healed by someone with the proper healing skill.
A Channeler who calls too much upon the One Power must make a second Fatigue Check if they attempted to call upon the source more than half their Power Rank past their actual rank and fails a Fatigue Check, failing a second check results in Burnout. (i.e. a Black Ajahi has a PR 7 and meets the FV for Balefire and during a battle she surpasses her PR by attempting to call upon the Source 4 more times. She fails her fourth Fatigue Check. She now makes a second Fatigue Check and if she fails that one she is Burned Out.
If at any time a character tries to call upon the One Power and does not meet the Focus Requirements they must immediately make a Fatiuge Check as if they have passed their Power Rank. However the Channeler suffers and additional penalty of 5 for each point by which they do not meet the Focus Requirements. (i.e. an Windfinder with a Will 3 is attempting to summon a rain storm to swamp a Sheanchan warship. She lacks the Focus Requirement for Willpower which is a 4. She must make the Fatigue Check of 10+PR+FV+5)


It needs a little work, but I think the general idea is visible. Really powerful weaves would have high fatigue while basic ones most likely wouldn't. (i.e. little dancing balls of light) I figured it has to allow the Channelers a decent use of the One Power, but at the same time penalize them if they try to really abuse it.
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Postby Nomad4life » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:59 pm

Wow- I’m convinced! True 20 would be even better at emulating a WOT campaign than I initially thought! Great ideas so far, folks.

As others seem to have picked up on, the single biggest obstacle would be refining the magic (channeling) system. I agree that the corruption mechanic from BR could be modified into a “madness” mechanic… I’m already using something similar for Dark Side points in my True 20 Star Wars conversion.
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Postby Rubio » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:27 am

Nomad4life wrote:I’m already using something similar for Dark Side points in my True 20 Star Wars conversion.


Serious? Cool! Got anything on paper? Any chance you could post it?


On a slightly-back-on-topic note, what sort of benefits and liabilities (in game terms) would a channeller's warder get? Would they be required to spend their own feats on the associated abilities (accelerated healing, sense their ward, etc) or would they be Bonuses that have a drawback of being able to be compelled (-10 to Will save vs. their Ward?) and feeling damage (Maybe if the ward takes lethal damage, the warder has to make a Toughness save against the same amount of non-lethal damage?)
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Postby dm4hire » Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:14 am

I’d have to say that the Warder’s abilities would be innate. The draw back is the back lash that comes when the Aes Sedai dies. Uncontrolled rage is not a blessing nor is the possibility of death which could result from it as well. I’ve thought about this and I think that this particular problem is a backlash from the One Power on the mind of someone who is not able to channel. I’m waiting to see what happens when one of the bonded Ash’Aman or Aes Sedai dies and what the backlash will do to their counter part. Still from the way that Jordan has written about the bonding it would be level based to some extent.

Speaking of levels, I’ve been thinking about it and am starting to lean more toward setting it up to work more like M&M with it being set at a specific level and not really advancing it beyond that point. The characters as a whole really haven’t developed much in the books outside of learning new weaves. Perhaps a point buy system for the skills could be incorporated so that experience points could be rewarded and then used to purchase new weaves or increase skills.
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Postby Ron » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:45 pm

I'm pretty sure that True20 would be a better engine to run a Wheel of Time game. However, I would suggest the inclusion of a power hability. I played the d20 WoTRPG with this seventh stat and I think it worked very well to translate the books.
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Postby Rubio » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:34 am

dm4hire wrote:Speaking of levels, I’ve been thinking about it and am starting to lean more toward setting it up to work more like M&M with it being set at a specific level and not really advancing it beyond that point.


Erm... then why not just use MnM?
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Postby dm4hire » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:50 pm

Well at the core M&M is really just True20. It's what started the whole thing to begin with. I'm just thinking that there hasn't been much character advancement since the start. They've learned new skills and such, but their power level has always been the same with a few exceptions (mostly after being healed after being stilled).
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Postby The Shadow » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:14 pm

dm4hire wrote:Well at the core M&M is really just True20.


I would dispute that statement. I would say, rather, that True20 is a stripped-down d20 with some M&M mechanics added.
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Postby dm4hire » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:25 pm

M&M was the forerunner for True20. More or less the testing ground. When it first came out I was pretty impressed with it and told a lot of friends how I could see doing a fantasy setting with the basic mechanics of the system as presented. And GR pretty much has done that. I truly believe that a lot of stuff can be converted over to True20 because of its simplicity. Without M&M being created and proving that it could be simplified I doubt that GR would have even looked toward doing the True20 concept.

Wheel of Time as presented in the novels indicates as far as power goes that most of the characters will always have the same power level. It is just a matter of learning their full potential. The best way to reflect that then would be to present the PC's with a set power level and then work a skill system to adjust for advancement of knowledge in how to use that power. So in a nutshell the PC's will always be at the same level of power that they are designed to be, just they will progress in what they can do with that power. Perhaps making the Power Level I mentioned in the previous post an actual stat like Ron states. Then the dedication of points becomes a reflection of character developement at creation. A 25 point allotment over seven stats guarentees that the PC's can't be designed to powerful. Though it would probably be better to destribute 20 points with humans getting and extra five points since Ogre don't get to use the one power. Then again their power designation could be for tree singing and some of the other things they can do that humans can't.
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Postby The Shadow » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:45 am

dm4hire wrote:M&M was the forerunner for True20. More or less the testing ground.


No, it wasn't. M&M was and is an outstanding superhero game, tuned to that genre. While I and many others did speculate about using it for fantasy (and I still might use it for certain fantasy applications), it seems clear that it wasn't designed for that purpose.

True20's powers are very different from M&M powers, to name just one major difference, owing much more to the Psychic's Handbook than M&M.

Without M&M being created and proving that it could be simplified I doubt that GR would have even looked toward doing the True20 concept.


Simplified? While True20 is simpler in some respects, M&M is completely classless.

Perhaps making the Power Level I mentioned in the previous post an actual stat like Ron states.


Hmm. An interesting idea. I would suggest doing something to make Power attractive to non-Adepts, though. Otherwise they'll just sell it down to -5. :) Perhaps it's also the stat used to defend against magic, or ties into Conviction somehow.

A 25 point allotment over seven stats guarentees that the PC's can't be designed to powerful.


25 points?! That's an average of over +3.5! The equivalent of 17's in everything sounds pretty powerful to me...

A total of 7 points seems more reasonable.
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