Two Weapon Attack

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Two Weapon Attack

Postby Warbringer » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:07 am

I think this is a bad feat.

True20 compresses all attacks into a single attack, then this feat feat allows a second offhand attack... Sorry. this is just counter intuitive to the logic of making the game simpler.

Our house fix: +1 attack, +1 parry (lose the other feat 2-weapon defense)

my 2c
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Postby Ludanto » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:36 am

I don't see how it's a "bad feat".

Anybody can make a second attack with an off-hand weapon. The feat just makes it easier.
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Postby Warbringer » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:10 pm

It's a bad feat because it doesn't fit the contraction of attacks.

Does a dragon get to make a primary attack and six off-hand attacks?

It's simply bad, IMHO, in that it doesn't fit.

Like I said, my 2c
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Re: Two Weapon Attack

Postby skywalker » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:32 pm

Warbringer wrote:Our house fix: +1 attack, +1 parry (lose the other feat 2-weapon defense)


Doesn't this make it superior to other feats such as Weapon Focus and Dodge?

Personally, I don't have any real issues with the extra attck in this regard. However, I would probably agree with an increase to the penalty of -4.
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Postby Ludanto » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:41 am

Warbringer wrote:It's a bad feat because it doesn't fit the contraction of attacks.

Does a dragon get to make a primary attack and six off-hand attacks?

It's simply bad, IMHO, in that it doesn't fit.

Like I said, my 2c


But that's my point. The feat has nothing to do with allowing you to make two attacks in a turn. ANYBODY can do that at ANY time. The feat just enhances an already existing rule. Now, if you want to say that characters shouldn't be able to make off-hand attacks at all, that's different, and the feat has nothing to do with it...
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Postby Warbringer » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:24 am

Ok, characters shouldn't be able to make off-hand attacks :)

Serioulsy, as creatures usually only get one attack does a toughness save come after each attack, or after each creature has finished the attack. i.e. does damage stack?

My interpretation would say no stack, but then then fighting Two Weapons becomes almost worthless; Why? Well, as how well you hit effectively determines how well you will damage, by increasing the toughness, the penalty affects damage, as well as too hit. That said, at high level coupled with cleave/great cleave things get fun against mooks.

Anyone allowing monsters to take this as a multi-attack?
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Postby timemrick » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:38 am

Warbringer wrote:My interpretation would say no stack, but then then fighting Two Weapons becomes almost worthless; Why? Well, as how well you hit effectively determines how well you will damage, by increasing the toughness, the penalty affects damage, as well as too hit.

You have this trade-off in standard d20, too. Two-weapon fighters must use smaller weapons, so can't do as much damage with each attack. And if you're fighting something with damage reduction (in either system), a single larger weapon is almost always more effective. Even an opponent with mundane heavy armor (high AC in d20, high Toughness in True20) is harder to damage when you're fighting with two weapons.

Short version: It's a tactical choice, not a system flaw.
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Postby Warbringer » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:54 am

I was going to leave this poor dead horse alone, but in truth I really do consider off-hand attacks are a flaw in True20.

A human(oid) picks up a secon weapon and suddenly another attack over the max of 1.

Meanwhile, the dragon with the ability to bite, rend with its claws, slap with its tail, attacks once, because it doesn't pick up an extra weapon.

Two weapon fighting is a legacy from a system in which multiple attacks are the norm.

That is all I am saying.

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Postby Dork Elf » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:38 am

*Enter horse bludgeoner*

Just a few thoughts here. One is that two weapon fighting also gives you double the opportunity to score a critical, or if you carry magical weapons, allows for multiple effects. I think an accuracy trade-off is especially acceptable then if you assume only highly trained (i.e. high combat bonus) beings can use the approach effectively, and makes having two attacks meaningful.

That said... as to thinking the two-weapon method used is a bad one in regards to True20's trimmed down approach, I can see your point. I don't mind it at all, but I can see how one could. If I had to change it, I would probably make the Two-Weapon Fighting feat work like this:

Make it widen Crit range of primary weapon by one if off-handing a light weapon, and by 2 if offhanding a medium weapon, but make the auto-miss (or fumble) range an equal value to crit range. It is easier to do something stupid when holding a couple weapons :) Allow a +1 to parry as well and do away with the 2 Weap Defense feat like you planned to. Defininitely not stackable with Improved Critical, though. That would be madness. I would also probably use fumble rules here too, like making increased auto-misses negate ALL Parry bonus until your next turn in the initiative chain, or worse hehe.

So it's like a Parry +1 feat that makes it easier to do more or NO damage. Just a possibility, though I make it sound more convoluted than it actually is. :-?
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Postby Ludanto » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:22 pm

Super-Mega-Dead-Horse-Tiger-Attack-Zero!

Warbringer wrote:Ok, characters shouldn't be able to make off-hand attacks :)

Serioulsy, as creatures usually only get one attack does a toughness save come after each attack, or after each creature has finished the attack. i.e. does damage stack?


I don't know why you would think that...

My interpretation would say no stack, but then then fighting Two Weapons becomes almost worthless; Why? Well, as how well you hit effectively determines how well you will damage, by increasing the toughness, the penalty affects damage, as well as too hit. That said, at high level coupled with cleave/great cleave things get fun against mooks.


Did I miss something? The total you roll on the dice to hit (barring the occasional crit) has nothing to do with your damage result. Either you hit or you miss A result of '2' and a result of '15' will do the same amount of damage. I don't know what you're talking about with regard to "increasing Toughness".

Anyone allowing monsters to take this as a multi-attack?


I haven't given it much thought, but there's no reason you couldn't do so...
As for the multitude of possible attacks, it's not a matter of limbs so much as it is a matter of divided attention... Theoretically a human could kick with his spare leg while he fights, too, but it's hard enough to coordinate two attacks at a time...
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Postby DevianID » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:51 am

hmmm... Well I planed to counter the two weapon "problem" with a feat akin to Flurry for a Monk

Flurry (Martial)
Prerequisite Dex +2 or higher

You may make an additional attack if you wield only one weapon with no shield. This second attack adds only half the strength bonus to damage, as its is impossible to build enough momentum after recovering from the first swing. You take a penalty to both attacks equal to -2 if the weapon is light, -4 if the weapon is one-handed, and -6 if the weapon is two-handed. Flurry can be used in anny combination with Normal Attacks, Trip, Disarm, and Sunder attemps, but not with a Charge\Rush action.
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