How to assign beastie levels?

[Tim Gray]

The concept of levels is central to True20, but I note that levels are absent from (most of) the sample beastie write-ups and the notes about how to stat them. Nor do the listed skills allow you to backtrack and work out the level, because they're different. Comments?

[timemrick]

The concept of levels is central to True20, but I note that levels are absent from (most of) the sample beastie write-ups and the notes about how to stat them. Nor do the listed skills allow you to backtrack and work out the level, because they're different. Comments?

I've complained here before about the lack of detail (and comprehensive rules) in the monster write-ups in both Blue Rose and True20 Adventure Roleplaying, so will spare you the bulk of that. (If you want it, just follow those links to my "Errata & Notes" pages for each book, and scroll down to the appropriate chapter.)

Except for the goblin and orc, all of the creatures in True20 are adapted from the Bestiary chapter of Blue Rose. My True20 "E&N" page notes the levels given in BR, and corrects some stats based on those figures. If you want rules for creature types and advancement, you'll need to see BR, because True20 omits all that.

I'm seriously thinking about working out a full Monster Manual-style guide to statting creatures, which I may pitch to Green Ronin as a web enhancement for BR/True20 if they haven't published one themselves before I get around to it...

[Grim Luck]

good luck on this.

I'd like to see what you end up with.

Of course, its a lot of work. I never realized just how much work doing projects like these could be until I started with the character generator. The number of errors and fixes has really made me more gunshy about volunteering for work like this again. I hate feeling stupid!

A.P.

[Tim Gray]

I've added a note to my review at RPGnet along the lines that I'm thinking they put the True20 pdf together pretty quickly to satisfy fans who were asking for it and as a feeler for a possible print edition, looking at it as a minor project and never expecting it to sell as well as it has. Not knocking the product, which has many good points, but just a little more polish would have made a big difference.

(The density of stat blocks is a major factor in putting me off running d20, and problems like this don't endear True20 to me. I just came to have a go at making up a couple of creatures and, as it stands, I can't.)

[Grim Luck]

Personally I hope that they don't rush it. I'd rather that they take their time and really make it shine. Right now, we've got what we need (mostly), and giong forward any fixes they make will be sent to those of us who bought the PDF.

I mean, they COULD have not put out anything at all until they were completely ready. This way, they get to try out something new (the setting contest) and they get more feedback from people about how things are working.

Its almost like we're a part of the development team.

Some people might not like this. I do.

a lot.

[timemrick]

(The density of stat blocks is a major factor in putting me off running d20, and problems like this don't endear True20 to me. I just came to have a go at making up a couple of creatures and, as it stands, I can't.)

I think my main beef with the BR/True20 bestiaries is that many of the sample creatures were obviously built by quickly converting them from d20, rather than following a system consistent with the core True20 rules (and their changes to assigning skills, feats, etc.). With the True20 System being marketed in part to new gamers, it very much needs something that combines the comprehensive rules of the Monster Manual's appendix with the elegance of True20's other modifications to d20.

[Tim Gray]

Guidelines for picking levels and adhering to the roles or not for saves etc are the main thing needed. You can pick skills and feats freeform - I wouldn't tend to bother about "balance". I guess you could assume all animals and some monsters are Experts and some monsters are warriors.

[Grim Luck]

I kind of get the feeling that animals should have their own type of roles.

I remember a D20 SWRPG book that I own that has them broken down into roles like 'Predator' and 'Scavenger' etc. These groups had their own progression as well as modifications based on size. If I get a chance over the next couple of weeks I might modify this a bit and put that info into a document on my Tr20CG group for download. Unless someone else beats me to it and uploads it there.

I'll alert the boards if and when I get this done.

A.P.

[Azza]

I would probably use the "classes" , for want of a better word, that are presented in the Monster Manule, converted over to True 20. I also noticed that the creatures were way out. I think it will be hard work converting them all over and I wish timerick the best if he does embark on that endevour! I think I will be looking at them as I need them.
Here's a thought. Maybe we could pick a monster or two and post there conversions for all to see and comment on and together we could come up with some guidelines on True 20 monsters? I will get my monster Manual out tonight and do one.

[anonymous_zombie]

count me in!

i have already done two d20-true20 creature conversions, but dont have them right here rihgt now, im gonna try to post them tomorrow.

In case you ask: large earth elemental (8HD) and the greater drake (from d20 past).

It wasnt all that hard, but i still want to see how will they fare against the PCs. One issue i had to "house rule" was natural armor. It had to add to Toughness (its armor, after all) but then the monsters toughness saves were awfully high. So instead i tought of this: add only half its value (round down) to toughness, but make it vulnerable to finesse attacks. I think many natural armors should have weak spots, after all (go for the eyes! the eyes!).

Anyway, what do you think?

[Matrix Sorcica]

A long time lurker, now I'm ready to reveal myself....

The way creatures are converted now, some creatures, mainly those with d10 and d12 HD, get the shaft. IMO, they should be compensated, at their intended toughness otherwise is lost.

So here goes, here are my house-rules for converting creatures.

1. Monsters don’t have roles, unless it says so in their MM desciption. They have HD just like normal D&D. This means that they get a combat bonus based on their D&D HD and type, and feats according to their HD. Same with skills.
This means that an ogre has a combat bonus of +3 and 2 feats and 1 skill.

2. Monsters with d10 HD get an extra +1 to Toughness saves per 5 HD. Those with d12’s get a +1 per 3 HD. This is based on the Blue Rose rule that +5 hp equals +1 to Toughness saves. I assume that d8 is the ‘base’ HD, since the most creatures have this, including humanoids. Since 5d10 on average is 5 hp more than 5d8, there you go. Same for d12’s.

3. Creatures larger than medium don’t get a Toughness bonus based on size. The bonus is already included in the creature’s Con bonus, so no need to add it twice. Creatures smaller than small do get a penalty, as their Con remains the same after size small.

4. Natural armor adds +1 to Toughness saves per +2 of armor.

5. Creatures with innate spell caster levels (like a rakshasa) get bonus feat as an adept of similar level that can only be used on supernatural feats, and can used powers thus gained as an adept of equal level. So a rakshasa gets 10 supernatural bonus feats and its power ranks are at rank 10.

6. For spell-like powers, there are basically two options. Either try to convert to a similar arcane, or just use the spell-like ability as is, if possible. If the spell-like ability deals damage, see below.

7. For massive damage effects, the +1 to Toughness per 5 hp rule of thumb can be used again. Calculate the max. damage of the effect and divide the result by 5. That’s the damage bonus. A pit fiend’s 10d6 can deal a maximum of 60 points of damage. Divide by 5 and the result is +12 damage. Nasty, but not a total killer.

8. One could also make the fireball dependant on the pit fiend’s caster level. That would give a power rank of 21, which would make the fireball a +10 damage widened elemental strike (non-fatiguing). Oh, a red great wyrm would deliver a +48 breath!

9. Spell-like abilities and such should be non-fatiguing, IMO.

10. Ordinary people get abilities as if they were getting humanoid HD. That is, 1 feat evey 3 HD and one good save and 2 skills.


I think that’s it. To demonstrate, I’ve converted a few examples. I’m only noting the parts I find important in judging whether this system works or not.

TROLL
Def: +5 (combat +4, dex +2, -1 size), Att: +5 (combat +4, dex +2, -1 size), Dam: claw +8, bite +5, Saves: Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3, Tough +8 (con + nat. armor).

GREY RENDER
Def: +9 (combat +10, -1 size), Att: +9 (combat +10, -1 size), Dam: bite +10, Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +4, Tough +14 (con + nat. armor + HD).

WYVERN
Def: +7 (combat +7, dex +1, -1 size), Att: +7 (combat +7, dex +1, -1 size), Dam: stinger +6 + poison, bite +10, Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6, Tough +9 (con + nat. armor + HD).

TYRANNOSAURUS REX
Def: +12 (combat +13, dex +1, -2 size), Att: +12 (combat +13, dex +1, -2 size), Dam: bite +19, Saves: Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +8, Tough +10 (con + nat. armor).

PIT FIEND
Def: +25 (combat +18, dex +8, -1 size), Att: +25 (combat +18, dex +8, -1 size), Dam: claw +19, Saves: Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +21, Tough +19 (con + nat. armor).
(Too lazy to write up spell-like abilities)

GREAT RED WYRM
Def: +32 (combat +40, -8 size), Att: +32 (combat +40, -8 size), Dam: bite +30, Claw +17, Breath +48 Saves: Fort +32, Ref +22, Will +30, Tough +42 (con + nat. armor + HD).

Okay, it does break down a bit with the dragon, but hey – it’s a CR 26 monster!
Speaking of which, I’ll get back later with a way to determine beasties’ ‘level’ (or CR).


Comments are extremely welcome!

[Tim Gray]

Thanks for the input Matrix. However, we're talking about two things: converting creatures from other d20 materials, and creating them from scratch in True20. Both should be possible. And the latter should certainly not depend on anything outside True20, like hit dice.

[Matrix Sorcica]

And the latter should certainly not depend on anything outside True20, like hit dice.

Agreed. But if building the creature from scratch, it's more or less just writing some numbers on paper, IMO.

Then, after writing down the desired numbers, the challenge of estimating the creatures level remains. I se now that this was the major point of your original post.

The major point in my conversions is retaining the 'feel' that I think was intended for some monsters in the MM. The way they're currently supposed to be converted to True20, a lot o their 'personality' is lost, IMO.

However, my former post might not have been totally in vain. Firstly, I'm going to customize the wonderful CR system found in Upper Krust's Immortals Handbook on ENWorld and later refined in Grim Tales, to True20.

That may take some time, though, so secondly the conversions created by my system could be used to gauge the level of other home-built creatures. If you design something that resembles the troll in final True20 stats, so can use its original d20 CR (or ECL) to determine approximate level. Not exactly, but close, I think.

If you use the paradigm 1 PC level = 1 CR, you're getting there.
Of course, there's room for improvement

[The Shadow]

One thing I'm hoping is that the Toughness rules will make monsters scarier. I've never approved of D&D's "cannon fodder" monsters - especially undead. If you're going to invoke the supernatural, it should inspire either wonder or terror, IMAO. :)

So put me down as a firm second in wanting to build True20 monsters from scratch.

[Grazzt]

If you're going to invoke the supernatural, it should inspire either wonder or terror, IMAO.

Horror or Sanity check ala Grim Tales, UA, or Call of Cthulhu d20 perhaps???

Scott Greene
www.NecromancerGames.com
www.TomeOfHorrors.com

[The Shadow]

I don't know that I'd go THAT far. :)

But I mean, if I as a GM introduce a zombie into an adventure, I don't want their reaction to be, "Ho hum." If that's all I want, I can just use human minions.

I want, "Oh crap!" :)

[Matrix Sorcica]

But I mean, if I as a GM introduce a zombie into an adventure, I don't want their reaction to be, "Ho hum." If that's all I want, I can just use human minions.

I want, "Oh crap!"

Maybe give a toughness bonus to undead. Or let them be unaffected by wounds etc., so one needs a 'disabled' result so put them out of the game?

[Denaes]

I don't know that I'd go THAT far.

But I mean, if I as a GM introduce a zombie into an adventure, I don't want their reaction to be, "Ho hum." If that's all I want, I can just use human minions.

I want, "Oh crap!"

Problem with zombies is that they die very easily - but only in certain locations... like the brain.

So just give them a massive toughness bonus, like +10 or +15 to represent that players are tearing into and damaging useless flesh. I'd change that +10 or +15 into a -5 for a head shot.

The scary part about zombies is that they keep comming and there are many of them. The fact that all it takes is a bite to kill you sucks as well.

People would shout blasphmy if their 14th level Paladin or Barbarian could die after a single bite.

[Matterhorn]

Hiya all
One of the problems with D20 hitpoints / hit dice is that they conflate (combine) size and capability. So most monsters are given hit points that equate to mass / size or `difficulty to kill' whereas characters gain hp based on capability. A 80 hp character and a 80 hp monster are completely different whereas two 80 hp monsters are often similar in size / difficulty to kill.

Here is how I create / convert monsters for True20.

I set the attributes according to the direct conversion for a critter from D20, factoring in size, or whatever I think looks right. I give it starting Feats, skills, armour bonuses to Toughness, etc according to what every member of that monster race is capable of.

I then rank it on a scale of how ass-kicking or old it is. I use 1-10 for animals and regular critters and 1-20 for dimensional / magical / divine / infernal types. This then becomes it's level, paying no attention to role.
I then use the `Level Dependent Benefits' table (True20 p10) for Feats, Attribute bonuses and max conviction. Some of these are not necessary if the monster is being used as a minion but remember that minion status is not about how capable an opponent is, it is about their role in the story. So a 20th level Red Dragon can be a minion. I then spend the Feats to give the critter whatever it should be able to do according to the concept and the level, trating all Feats as though they are general.

For calculating Saves I either convert directly from D20 or I use the following method.

Toughness: is always Con + Size mods. In the case of undead or supernaturally ass kicking critters I use level/2 (round down)+ size mods for Toughness (WARNING: this can lead to very tough opponents, but only at levels where the PCs can probably deal with them anyway). So a 20th level medium sized super zombie has base 10 toughness.

Combat bonus, Fort, Ref, Wil: I multiply the monsters level by 2 and divide the total amongst these stats as desired with the caveat that combat bonus can be no higher than level. So my Super zombie can have Combat +20, Fort +10, Ref + 5, Wil +5 (total 40). Or Combat +10, Fort +7, Ref + 20, Wil +3 (Quick skitter zombie). Any combination can be done but, as stated, base combat bonus cannot exceed level. NOTE; level x 2 points to divide between these stats is pretty close to an average between what Adepts, Experts and Warriors get at the equivalent level (add em up and check for yourself ). Feats can improve saves and specific attack bonuses too so keep this in mind.

It is then just a matter of giving them weapons and any additional armour to natural armour. Be sure to differentiate between natural and worn armour. If you are converting from d20 be sure to only apply natural and worn armour from the armour class and leave the rest.

The benefit of this method is that it does not require applying a Heroic Path to a Monster. Benefits per level and the 2 x level = [saves + BAB] does all the work for you. It gives you plenty of freedom to mix and match saves and BAB as you see fit. It bases Toughness on size and Con and ignores Hit Dice. It also gives the option for the Level/2 + size for critters with no Con, or who are supernaturally tough. There is a degree of correlation between level and size because, especially in the case of big monsters, a higher level critter is more likely to be larger too, but this does not have to be the case. You can have a 5th level colossal Red Dragon that was magically grown so has not had much experience with life (low level) but is enormous and scary nonetheless. Alternatively you can have a 12th level small red dragon that has been touched by Tiamat and has great capability but little size.

When assessing whether a moster is a good match for opposing your player characters think of level as capability and total toughness as combat duration. So a low level high toughness critter will take longer to beat whereas a high level low toughness monster will be knocked over sooner but may well take a character or two into the nether-world with it.

What do you think?

Matterhorn.

[Tim Gray]

I'm suspecting that the answer is to have a creature's level set by the characters it goes up against, rather than being objective for the creature itself. So you look at how much of a challenge you want it to be and how many there are and peg it to (say) within 3 levels of the PCs either way. So if a party of 4 10th level characters meet a single orc in a combat encounter, it's probably about 12th level. (Someone with a proper understanding of this stuff would have to look at the actual level differences.)

The impression I get from True20 is that statting *anything* should be a matter of select attributes, skills, feats, level, class, turn handle.

[Matterhorn]

Yep, Tim Grey, That is the way I treat it.
In True20 (for me) level is all about the capabilities of a critter (or for that matter, a person). Size and Con are the key determinors for Toughness. Natural / supernatural /worn armour can improve this. If you want a particularly difficult version of the critter, give it some levels and buy it the Great Toughness Feat one or more times. Give it a higher Con than is typical for that species too if you want.
The thing is that True20 has unshackled monsters from the more levels = more hitpoints / hit-dice nature of D20. You can have a 20th level Kobold archmage if you want with a Toughness of -2 and a boat-load of arcane Feats and Powers. One arrow will knock him over but you've just got to get close enough to fire it .

Matterhorn.