True 20 pdf errata

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True 20 pdf errata

Postby carpedavid » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:27 am

Let's try to collect any errors that you may find in the True20 pdf in this thread. It's such a great system that it deserves to be squeaky-clean.

Edit: I'll edit in all of the collected errors that appear later in the thread to make referencing them easy.

p. 4 - Opposed Check Examples box. The first item in the list reads "Steath up on someone." I believe that this should read "Sneak up on someone." I'm guessing this was the vicitm of a global search and replace from the BR text.

p. 11 - The adept role paragraph on abilities is based on the BR system, where different powers required different key abilities, rather than the True20 rule that each adept chooses a single key ability for all their powers.

p. 14: Re-roll

"You must spend the hero point to improve a roll before the Narrator announces the result of your roll."

should be

"You must spend the conviction point to improve a roll before the Narrator announces the result of your roll."

p. 25, The Armour Training (General) Feat p25 refers to light and heavy armour.
The armour table p55 refers to light, medium and heavy armour.

p. 28. Feats List box. In the Supernatural Feats section, the Elemental Strike feat is listed, but does not appear in the description of the feats. As noted below, it's now a power, so it should be removed from the list of feats.

p. 28 Supernatural Feats [added 6/30]
This is pretty nitpicky, but all the feats ending in the word Power are singular in the table, but plural in their description, e.g. Widen Power on the table is labelled Widen Powers in the description.

p. 29, Defensive Roll:
"You receive a bonus to your Toughness saving throws" What's the bonus?

p. 30, Improved Dodge:
Improved Dodge grants a bonus when taking a dodge action in combat, but dodge isn't listed as an action in the fighting section of Chapter 6.

p. 31 Improved Pin [added 6/30]
This feat does not appear in the Feats table.

p. 36, it says that Adepts always use dex rather than strength for touch attack rolls, which is misleading for this version of True20, because everyone uses dex for attack rolls.

p. 37. Fatigue:

A successful save results in no ill effect on the adept. A failed save means the adept suffers a level of fatigue (see Fatigue, page 37).

This circular page reference should point to the section on Fatigue in Chapter 6, page 75.

p. 50 Wealth - Aid Another [added 6/30]
The sentence "If the item's cost is above your current Wealthy..." should probably read "If the item's cost is above your current Wealth score..."

p. 63 Carrying Loads table [added 6/30]
If this table is derived from d20 Modern, the Speed penalty for a Heavy load should be 1/2, not 2/3.

p. 68, Actions in Combat table:
The Actions in Combat table lists several actions to which there is no description:
Slam
Cover
Startle

p. 69 also refers to using the Distract feat to daze opponents in combat, but there is no such feat.

The Inspire feat's save DC is 10 + half your level + your Charisma. It doesn't specify whether this is total level or your expert level. The benefit of the "courage" effect also doesn't specify whether it's total level or expert level.

The Two-weapon Defense feat's bonus increases to +2 when fighting defensively or taking a full defense action, which don't exist in True20. There's no equivalent to fighting defensively (aside from the Defensive Attack feat), and full defense has been replaced by the total defense action.

The Improved Dodge feat refers to dodge actions, which aren't mentioned anywhere else. It refers to page 7, but only dodge bonuses are described there. Presumably this "dodge action" is an old name for Total Defense.

p. 70, Grapple:
The description of Pin mentions the Improved Grapple feat. There is no such feat listed.

p. 71, Rush: it's stated that if the Rushee fails, they fly back 5ft per number they fail by. Is this correct?

p. 72 Combat Modifiers [added 7/1]
Moving all out in the table has asterisks for Melee and Ranged modifiers, but is never explained.

p. 75 Dying [added 7/1]
The definition of Dying on page 75 doesn't match the definition under Condition Summary on page 76. Specifically, the required recovery check is once per round on page 75 and once per hour on page 76.

p. 76: the paragraph about the exhausted condition states that characters suffer a -6 penalty, while page 75 states that exhausted characters suffer a -3 penalty.

p. 76 Condition Summary [added 7/1]
Wounded is missing from the list of conditions.

p. 79: The end of the second paragraph refers to "romantic fantasy."

p. 86: Combat: Attack +1 (+2 with axe), Damage +3 (unarmed), +X (axe), Defense +1, Initiative +0

p. 88, the Create Spawn ability:
"A vampire may have enslaved spawn totalling no more than twice its own level" but as far as I can see there's no level given for vampires (they are a monster, not a template).
Last edited by carpedavid on Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: True 20 pdf errata

Postby Steve Kenson » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:39 am

carpedavid wrote:Pg 28. Feats List box. In the Supernatural Feats section, the Elemental Strike feat is listed, but does not appear in the description of the feats.

Really? Its description is on page 41 of my copy of the PDF...
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:53 am

The problem is that Elemental Strike is actually a supernatural power, but it's listed in the table of supernatural feats. That's where the confusion lies.
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Postby Matterhorn » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:56 am

Good idea Carpedavid.

The Armour Training (General) Feat p25 refers to light and heavy armour.
The armour table p55 refers to light, medium and heavy armour.

The Orc stat block p86;

Combat: Attack +1 (+2 with axe), Damage +3 (unarmed), +X (axe),
Defense +1, Initiative +0

the axe damage is missing.

Hope this is helpful

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Postby carpedavid » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:58 am

LeaderDesslok wrote:The problem is that Elemental Strike is actually a supernatural power, but it's listed in the table of supernatural feats. That's where the confusion lies.


What LeaderDesslok said. I see it now, but that's a tad bit confusing.

Edit: Ah, I see that you've moved all of the BR "arcane feats" that worked like powers into the powers section (for example, Cure Disease/Poison/etc). This jibes with what you're doing in M&M 2.0 (changing super-feats into powers). It's a nice design decision - I like it.
Last edited by carpedavid on Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Denaes » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:02 am

If we whore ourselfs as proofcheckers, would you guys (Green Ronin) fix the problems in the PDF and make the fixed version available for download to those who had purchased it (and future purchasers of course)?

Thats the best feature of a PDF that I never see employed - the fact that you can correct errors or add things and make it available for the customers who paid for it.

One of the other best features that I never see employed is that of a Form in a PDF. That would rock for character sheets. Making a PDF that would print out fine, but had a form for a character sheet that let you fill in the blanks and even create a character.
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Postby Nikchick » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:07 am

Denaes wrote:If we whore ourselfs as proofcheckers, would you guys (Green Ronin) fix the problems in the PDF and make the fixed version available for download to those who had purchased it (and future purchasers of course)?


That has been our standard policy with all of our PDFs so far. If we make corrections, those updated files are free to everyone who purchased the original PDF.
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Postby Denaes » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:33 am

Fantastic :green:
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Fatigue

Postby carpedavid » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:16 pm

pg 37. Fatigue:

A successful save results in no ill effect on the adept. A failed save means the adept suffers a level of fatigue (see Fatigue, page 37).

This circular page reference should point to the section on Fatigue in Chapter 6, page 75.
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Postby Dragonspawn » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:44 pm

On page 66 it lists attack bonus as equal to: "combat bonus + Dexterity + size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers – range penalty."

This is fine for ranged attacks, but shouldn't it be strength instead of dexterity for melee weapons?

I also noticed "Weapon Finesse" was removed from feats which leads me to believe this was an intentional change and not an accidental omission.

Dex works great for ranged and light weapons (ie the ones that used to be usable with weapon finesse like the rapier) but I don't see dexterity helping you hit someone with a big two handed sword... thats most definately strength involved in both maneuveing the weapon and dealing damage with it. The same goes for most of the heavier axes and hammers etc.

Of all the changes in the True20 book from blue rose this is the only one I dislike... (and I really don't like it). I'm guessing it was a further attempt at simplification of the system, but as I have stated I just don't agree with it.

I realize I can always house-rule it but I want to hear what the rest of the true20 community thinks.

I would at least say strength is used to hit with two handed melee weapons.
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Postby Denaes » Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:24 pm

Strength shouldn't help you hit in the least. It wouldn't be realistic and wouldn't make any sense.

Strong != Graceful

Strength overcomes resistance, which is the Con+Armour. Thats why it contributes to damage.

You hit someone with dexterity. This is why someone who is strong and clumbsy often has more trouble landing a blow.

In D&D Strength is used because it's factored into overcomming natural armour, which is part of the AC.

In True20 a hit roll only overcomes defense - which is skill and agility. The strenght comes into play in overcomming armour in the next step if you connect.
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Postby carpedavid » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:12 pm

Dragonspawn wrote:On page 66 it lists attack bonus as equal to: "combat bonus + Dexterity + size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers – range penalty."

This is fine for ranged attacks, but shouldn't it be strength instead of dexterity for melee weapons?


I believe this has to do with the change made to Defense and Toughness. Hitting someone (overcoming their Defense) is purely a function of making contact with them, thus the reliance on Dexterity. Damaging someone (getting through their armor) is now a function of how hard you hit, and thus, relies on Strength.

In other words, they've separated accuracy and power. Accuracy is Dex modified, and power is Str modified. Looked at in this light, I find that it actually makes more sense this way.
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Melee vs. Ranged defense ratings

Postby doluntchr » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:27 pm

Apparently, now they have separate defense ratings against ranged and melee attacks. Ranged defense is based on Dex, and Melee defense is based on Strength. These separate defense ratings are not listed for any of the creatures or on the character sheet (they all use the Dex based defense number). Furthermore, the character sheet has separate entries for melee and ranged attack bonus. If they are switching it to just Dex, then these separate boxes are no longer necessary.

I would argue that if Strength helps you parry melee attacks, it should also help you batter through your opponent's parry. I agree that your attack bonus for 2-Handed weapons (except maybe staffs) should be based on Strength, not Dex. Is that too complicated? Maybe, but I think having separate defense bonuses is too complicated too.
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Monster Toughness and Defense

Postby doluntchr » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:41 pm

The monster conversion rules seem to completely ignore natural armor. It doesn't appear to get added to Toughness. Does True20 not include natural armor or is that just an oversight?

While we're at it, a note of how much Attack or Defense is Combat bonus might be nice (not required mind you, but nice).
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Postby MadBlue » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:52 pm

Denaes wrote:Strength shouldn't help you hit in the least. It wouldn't be realistic and wouldn't make any sense.

Strong != Graceful
It's hard to be graceful with a claymore or a flail.

You hit someone with dexterity. This is why someone who is strong and clumbsy often has more trouble landing a blow.
It depends on how "Dexterity" is defined in game terms. In D&D, Dexterity is about agility, hand-eye coordination and fine motor skills. In D&D, Strength isn't just about how much damage you can do and what you can lift, it's also about gross motor skills. Of course there's some crossover, but melee combat is a function of Strength because it represents the ability to keep a weapon steady while you're swinging it, as opposed to aiming at a target. If you're fighting in melee, and you miss while swinging a sword, it's generally because the target dodged or parried, or because you didn't have the strength to hold a 4 lb, 2 foot length of steel steady when you swung. Realistically, nobody's so clumsy that they can't hit a man-sized target from 2 feet away.

Not that it wouldn't make sense to base it on Dexterity as well, since many other games do (accuracy vs power), but by the way D&D defines Strength, it does makes sense. IMHO, I feel kind of mixed about True20's basing melee combat on Dexterity, but I like what they've done with having Armor add to the Toughness Save, and having the Toughness save not improve with level. I guess it's more of a balance issue than anything. Since "HPs" don't improve with level, having one ability governing damage and hitting in melee would make it too powerful.

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Postby Michael Tree » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:35 pm

Guys, could you take the strength vs. dexterity debate to another thread, so we can use this one solely for errata.

More errata
Several references in the book refer to using the Bluff skil for a "trick" action, but the trick action in the combat section (p.71) refers back to the Bluff skill for mechanics, and the bluff skill doesn't say anything about tricks.

P.69 also refers to using the Distract feat to daze opponents in combat, but there is no such feat.

The Inspire feat's save DC is 10 + half your level + your Charisma. It doesn't specify whether this is total level or your expert level. The benefit of the "courage" effect also doesn't specify whether it's total level or expert level.

The Two-weapon Defense feat's bonus increases to +2 when fighting defensively or taking a full defense action, which don't exist in True20. There's no equivalent to fighting defensively (aside from the Defensive Attack feat), and full defense has been replaced by the total defense action.

The Improved Dodge feat refers to dodge actions, which aren't mentioned anywhere else. It refers to page 7, but only dodge bonuses are described there. Presumably this "dodge action" is an old name for Total Defense.

The character sheet only has one entry for Defense, not separate entries for Dodge and Parry.
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Postby MadBlue » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:45 am

Sorry about that. :oops:

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Postby Matterhorn » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:29 am

This is more of an accessibility note than an errata one but;

It would be nice if Powers had a summary table in the same way that Feats and Skills have one. Additionally, for Digital DMs, it would be great if these lists were linked to their specific entries in the same way as the table of contents is. Fast access to an entry from the Feat, Skill and Power (please) tables would be a cool feature when making characters and converting critters.

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Postby Denaes » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:01 am

On a layout note, when I had my stuff printed at Staples, the top and bottom bar are cut off and I'm missing a little bit of the words in white on top (readable, but barely) and the bottom pixel of the page number on the bottom is missing.

This may be a problem with the printer, but I thought I'd throw it out there if anyone had the same problem. Then again Staples also gave us single sided copies rather than the double sided we asked for.

Another layout problem is that on the first page of each chapter you don't have the page number. You should.
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Postby Denaes » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:23 am

Oh, another Erratta:

There isn't any information on backgrounds. Very large oversite. Cut'n'Paste error?

There is a spot for Backgrounds on the character sheet.

True as a toolkit you wouldn't have BR specific backgrounds or any worlds specific backgrounds, but you can't put out a fantasy geared suppliment with Orc 1st Level Warriors in it, without addressing at least races.

Backgrounds was a breath of fresh air as it wasn't just Race, but it was also the Culture.

There should be mention on what a Background & Race is and how to figure them in and possibly an example (like an Orc or Goblin that we see in the book)
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Postby Michael Tree » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:18 am

Good point about backgrounds. They're sorely missed. Even if it would be too difficult or time-consuming to add an additional page or two to the character creation section, an appendix on backgrounds could be added without much difficulty.
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Postby Dragonspawn » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:10 am

I think backgrounds will be included in the final product based on what the setting search turns up, and will include example backgrounds from the included setting(s)
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Postby Matterhorn » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:02 pm

p14: Re-roll

"You must spend the hero point to improve a roll before the Narrator announces the result of your roll."

should be

"You must spend the conviction point to improve a roll before the Narrator announces the result of your roll."

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Postby skywalker » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:23 pm

Dragonspawn wrote:I think backgrounds will be included in the final product based on what the setting search turns up, and will include example backgrounds from the included setting(s)


I am not so sure. As it stands, races from any D20 product can be plugged into True 20 (which is an advantage over Blue Rose). By adding specific rules for backgrounds, it limits True 20's ability to plugged into any d20 setting.

On saying that, I would be ahppy to see the basic D&D gudielines for races repeated (1 feat and 1 skill's worth of benefits, humans get a flexible choice) could be added with a couple of common examples like Elves and Dwarves.
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Skill Training

Postby doluntchr » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:05 pm

Not sure the Skill Training feat is correct. In Blue Rose it gives you two more known skills, but in Blue Rose, Known Skills are only at (level +3)/2. Since known skills are Level+3 in generic True20, maybe it should only give you ONE new skill?
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