True20 and OGL Superlink

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True20 and OGL Superlink

Postby LeaderDesslok » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:00 pm

I'm wondering if anyone of the Powers That Be could describe how True20 will impact the OGL Superlink license? Since it is basically derived from the M&M rules I thought there might be some plans for it down the road.
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Re: True20 and OGL Superlink

Postby Yldarr » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:12 am

LeaderDesslok wrote:I'm wondering if anyone of the Powers That Be could describe how True20 will impact the OGL Superlink license? Since it is basically derived from the M&M rules I thought there might be some plans for it down the road.


They have been a little vague about their future plans for True20 if any so far.

Are you wondering about this and asking GR to comment because you're concerned about a negative impact or because you're hopeful about a positive impact?

I'm with you... what's up Green Ronin?
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Postby Eri Anikemi » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:19 am

I thought that GR had been QUITE clear over in the Blue Rose forum that there were NO plans for a True 20 system, and there were NO licenced properties forth coming, and indeed True 20 is simply the name they gave the system for Blue Rose, not an indication that they were planning a massive relaunch of a new core system for all genre's and settings.
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:05 am

Well I haven't read through all of the posts in the Blue Rose forum, so I didn't know any of that.

I was wondering if they would take the changes from True20 and wind it back into M&M for a 2nd Edition. It seems like a good thing to me. I didn't think it would make sense for GR to relaunch any other product lines with these rules though, that would be overkill.
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Postby Blackhawk » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:28 am

I'm wondering how you think it would impact it?

I'm not sure I see any way it can.
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:14 pm

Well for one thing, by eliminating the standard numeric scale for ability scores and replacing them purely with the modifiers, you imbalance the points per PL.
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Postby Steve Kenson » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:53 pm

LeaderDesslok wrote:Well for one thing, by eliminating the standard numeric scale for ability scores and replacing them purely with the modifiers, you imbalance the points per PL.

You'd need to double the cost of abilities in the case of using modifiers rather than the standard numeric scores.
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Postby Blackhawk » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:26 pm

LeaderDesslok wrote:Well for one thing, by eliminating the standard numeric scale for ability scores and replacing them purely with the modifiers, you imbalance the points per PL.


Um, okay. That's a rules issue. So, I'm guessing you meant how True20 could impact the M&M rules rather than "the OGL Superlink license." Bit of confusion there; those are two different things.

Personally, I don't see anything in the underlying rule differences (thus barring Arcana and the like) that can't be ported into M&M easily and effectively.

In fact, I've mentioned on the M&M forum that I think using a variation of the True20 rules for skills would be an improvement to M&M.

Basically, skills ranks are earned by buying two possible feats, Trained and Highly Trained. Trained gives (PL+3)/2 Ranks in a skill, and Highly Trained can improve that to PL+3.
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Postby Yldarr » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:18 pm

Eri Anikemi wrote:I thought that GR had been QUITE clear over in the Blue Rose forum that there were NO plans for a True 20 system, and there were NO licenced properties forth coming, and indeed True 20 is simply the name they gave the system for Blue Rose, not an indication that they were planning a massive relaunch of a new core system for all genre's and settings.


Yes, that's true and I read that.
However, this system is popular and more True20 products outside Blue Rose shouldn't be totally out of the question.
GR doesn't need a massive relaunch as you say, just a product or three. :wink:
And certainly some conversion notes for free as pdf's for some of their other worlds.
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:24 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Um, okay. That's a rules issue. So, I'm guessing you meant how True20 could impact the M&M rules rather than "the OGL Superlink license." Bit of confusion there; those are two different things.

Yes, my bad. Sorry for that. Maybe a better question is whether or not another company that wanted to use the True20 rules would need to go through the Superlink licensing or just use the standard OGL 1.0A license.
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Postby Nikchick » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:27 pm

Yldarr wrote:And certainly some conversion notes for free as pdf's for some of their other worlds.


In our copious free time. :lol:
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Postby Nikchick » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:30 pm

LeaderDesslok wrote:Yes, my bad. Sorry for that. Maybe a better question is whether or not another company that wanted to use the True20 rules would need to go through the Superlink licensing or just use the standard OGL 1.0A license.


Want to use the rules defined as Open Game Content? You don't need to do anything but follow the Open Game License!

True20 is not included in the M&M Superlink license, and we do not have any plan at this point to either expand the Superlink license beyond its current scope, or to allow use of our proprietary names and trademarks in third party products.
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:56 pm

Excellent, thanks for the info Nikchick! There's so many threads in the True20 section about converting this or that to True20 it had me wondering.
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Postby REG » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:53 am

Nikchick wrote:True20 is not included in the M&M Superlink license, and we do not have any plan at this point to either expand the Superlink license beyond its current scope, or to allow use of our proprietary names and trademarks in third party products.

Hmm. I'm guessing folks want to use your True20 trademarks but I don't know if they're willing to go with a mandatory requirement label: "Requires the use of Blue Rose Core Rulebook from Green Ronin."

:wink:
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Postby Nikchick » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:02 am

REG wrote:Hmm. I'm guessing folks want to use your True20 trademarks but I don't know if they're willing to go with a mandatory requirement label: "Requires the use of Blue Rose Core Rulebook from Green Ronin."

:wink:



Yeah, the thought had occured to me. :lol:
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Postby LeaderDesslok » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:18 am

Not necessarily, but I couldn't figure out if someone who wanted to use the rules changes in True20 needed to specifically state that they were in fact the True20 rules, or if a simple Line 15 entry for Blue Rose and M&M was sufficient.
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Postby REG » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:45 pm

LeaderDesslok wrote:Not necessarily, but I couldn't figure out if someone who wanted to use the rules changes in True20 needed to specifically state that they were in fact the True20 rules, or if a simple Line 15 entry for Blue Rose and M&M was sufficient.

If you have a good marketing plan that does not require you to say "compatible with Blue Rose from Green Ronin," then going with just the OGL is sufficient.

Unfortunately, not many publishers have taken advantage of marketing, just standing back and rely solely on word-of-mouth, once they send their work to the printers and then distributors.
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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Postby dm4hire » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:01 am

REG wrote:
Nikchick wrote:True20 is not included in the M&M Superlink license, and we do not have any plan at this point to either expand the Superlink license beyond its current scope, or to allow use of our proprietary names and trademarks in third party products.

Hmm. I'm guessing folks want to use your True20 trademarks but I don't know if they're willing to go with a mandatory requirement label: "Requires the use of Blue Rose Core Rulebook from Green Ronin."

:wink:


They could easily fix that by putting out a basic True20 book, would be about 32 pages if that. Would be a cheap rule system in basic format.
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Postby timemrick » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:51 am

dm4hire wrote:They could easily fix that by putting out a basic True20 book, would be about 32 pages if that. Would be a cheap rule system in basic format.

True20 may be pared-down d20, but it didn't cut out anywhere near that much. The actual game rules still take up at least half of Blue Rose's 224 pages. Even if you use a small font and no art, you'd still have to edit the rules text to about half its current size to even have a chance of fitting it into anything as small as 32 pages.

And yes, I know there's a 32-page Lite edition of GURPS. It's fine for teaching the basics of the system, and creating very basic characters, but it leaves out many important topics (magic, vehicles, creatures, etc.), so you still need at least the GURPS Basic Set to play in most genres and settings. So while a "True20 Lite" book might be a product worth considering, you'd still need a "True20 Basic" book (or a setting+rules book like Blue Rose) in order to play True20.
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Postby dm4hire » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:32 am

I agree that overall there is more than 32 pages, but not much more than 96 pages if you look at just the basics. There are six pages for the Introduction, 23 pages for Character Developement, 32 pages for the skills and feats, 36 pages for Game Play and Narrating, for a total of 132 pages not counting spells and equipment.

However if you cut out all repeated sections, not too mention story flavor text, and only present the content in order, adding in the missing sections you'd probably cut that down a bit. Then reduce the artwork since it is a basic rules presentation that would cut it down also. So maybe around 96 pages is what you'd end up with, which is a decent size book.

I'd definitely buy it if they would do that. Make it completely world free so that it could be ported into any setting I wanted. If anything they could make it a pdf only. There is nothing out there saying that their basic system has to be in hard print.
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Postby REG » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:42 am

I know that D&D makers can get away selling just the rulebooks, as well as GURPS makers. Both have such a long legacy of providing the separate rules and campaign setting (or "worldbook") supplements. But others tried and failed. WEG tried to market their d6 rulebook twice (once in the 90's as the d6 Masterbook and most recently the three-volume genre rulebooks: d6 Fantasy, d6 Adventure, & d6 Space).

Personally, I don't see True20 going down that route. I see True20 as providing a series of core game books, one for each genre. So while the romantic fantasy is just the first -- actually I count the superhero book MnM the very first True20 product -- there will be others in the near future.

Hopefully they will do a True20 version of biblical prophecies and conspiracies genres. I'm now spoiled by Revelation TV series, and for the first time I want to read the Da Vinci Code. 8)
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

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