STR bonus adding to hit

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STR bonus adding to hit

Postby bushido11 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:32 am

I was reading one of the other forums about Defense or something like that and I noticed that someone had said that since armor modifies your Damage save and not your chance to get hit, all attacks are considered "touch attacks". To be more specific, the concept of touch attacks doesn't really apply to M&M. That being said...

In other d20 games with hit points and armor class (like D&D, CoC, etc), armor increases your armor class (the DC needed to get hit by the attacker's attack roll). Armor does not modify the amount of damage being taken, only your chances of taking a damaging attack. A high STR score provides a bonus to hit in melee because the stronger you are, the easier it'll be to bypass your opponent's defenses (such as armor) and inflict damage. That being said...

Defense is purely your ability to avoid getting hit in combat. Armor in M&M doesn't apply to Defense, only to Damage saves. This being the case, why does your STR bonus still modify your chance to hit in melee? For that, you have the damage bonus, which is taken into account for the damage save. That being said...

It makes sense that DEX modifies your chance to hit in ranged combat, because the more coordinated you are, the better chance you'll have of hitting a target. Shouldn't that coordination be taken into account on landing hits in melee as well? In other words, shouldn't DEX modify your base attack bonus in melee as well as ranged combat? For those who agree, here's an option: The cost for buying STR stays the same (since STR covers damage bonus for muscle-powered weapons, a few skills, weight capacity, and feats of strength), while the cost for buying DEX increases by 1pp per point (since it now handles both melee and ranged attacks).

Comments? Concerns? What do you think?
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Postby Anthony » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:43 am

There's a couple answers to that:

1) From a realism standpoint, Str does matter a lot in melee combat, because you need to be strong in order to move quickly (it's possible to be strong but slow, but it's not possible to be fast without being fairly strong for your size).
2) From a genre standpoint, there are plenty of bricks who seem to be pretty accurate in hand to hand combat, yet aren't noted for dodging around. Given this, it's good to give them a method for being accurate without high dex.
3) Again from a genre standpoint, weapon finesse covers situations where you feel someone should be able to strike well due to quickness, rather than power.
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Postby Greyseer » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:39 pm

You've made an excellent point Bushido. Currently there is one D20 game out there that uses armor as damage reduction that has thought of this as well. Traveller D20. In their system, all attacks, melee and ranged are based off of dex.

The armor as damage reduction method means that your not looking for "penetrating hits" but "accurate hits" and therefore dex should be used.

Unfortunatly, that does a couple of things. Too many people are used to using strength and have a difficult time accepting the change. The other problem is that dex is now even more important of a stat. It now determines

1) Defense
2) Reflex Saves
3) Ranged to hit
4) Melee to hit.

That's a little much for one stat. No one stat should be overpoweringly more important, and with that change that is indeed what happens to Dex.

I do aggree that it's more logical in the M&M system for Dex to be used to melee attacks, but for practical purposes I think it should be left the same.
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Re: STR bonus adding to hit

Postby gunsnammo » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:44 pm

bushido11 wrote: This being the case, why does your STR bonus still modify your chance to hit in melee?

It makes sense that DEX modifies your chance to hit in ranged combat, because the more coordinated you are, the better chance you'll have of hitting a target.


Hey,

A good arguement. Maybe a house-type rule if it does bother you would be to just say that by default dex modifies to hit and if you want strength to be the contributing factor make a new feat, maybe call it brutal attack, similar to attack finesse that uses strength instead of dex that way everyone is happy.

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Postby Strict31 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:24 pm

Man. I've seen this question come up in other non-D20 game forums too.

I'm not trying to disrespect Anthony in any way, but there's always someone who brings up real-world strength vs. real-world dexterity or reflexes. I think such arguments only go so far because it is a matter of conditioning fast muscle contracors rather than building up strength. But, I can only speak from my experience, not Anthony's. Meaning simply, I don't think melee accuracy in the real world is a matter of strength, but rather of conditioning. That's been my experience, but yours may vary. My point is not to start an argument with Anthony, but to suggest that there is a real-world counter to your argument (and, ostensibly, to mine), and as such, discussing the real-world logic behind the system may not be productive. Anthony's points, "2" and "3", are more compelling I think.

Bushido, in some cases, you simply have to make allowances for the nature of the system. This is D20. This is one of the basics of D20. It can be changed if you don't like it, but as Greyseer points out, that would add a capability to Dex and remove one from Str. If you're okay with this, you may wish to alter the costs for the respective Super-Abilities appropriately.

I don't have a problem with using Str to modify melee hit accuracy. Not because I think it is accurate; I don't. But rather, I feel, at some point, one just has to realize that every game system has its flaws and hang-ups and "things that make you go 'hmmm'..." The important thing is, the system works. But if you wish to tweak it, that's fine. For me, there are already options in place to allow a low-strength, high dexterity character to hit with just as much accuracy in melee, so no big deal.

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Postby bushido11 » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:20 am

Thanks for the replies, people. You've all made very good points. Strict31, thanks for giving me the heads up on countering Anthony's arguement. It's not so much as that being strong will increase your chances on landing an accurate hit, but on conditioning (which would be the function of Base Attack Bonus in this case).

The issue is not bothering me like a hideous rash in my mid-section or anything, it's just something that didn't seem logical in that prospective, where armor does nothing to improve your chances of avoiding an attack. Having DEX modify melee and ranged attacks would put a lot of capability into an already important stat; modifying it in a game where stats are acquired with points is no problem (HERO is one example, where 1 pt of DEX cost 3 CP, and 1 pt of STR cost 1 CP). But in a game where you have to roll for your stats (sticking index finger down throat and heaving into a doggy bag), it's disastrous for issues of game balance.

As Strict31 said before, it is the nature of d20 for Strength to modify melee attack rolls. As far as modifying the appropriate super-abilities, it isn't necessary, because Super-STR and Super-DEX don't modify attack rolls in the first place.

Note that this is merely an observation I am pointing out and not a rant against STR modifying melee attack rolls (we already know this, but I say it just in case). As far as Anthony's arguements go...

#1 has already been pointed out by Strict31.
#2 the accurate, non-dodging bricks can be accounted by having a high BAB (at least in melee) but a low Defense Bonus and/or low DEX.
#3 You've got a point with your third statement.

Also, for making hard-hitting, accurate, lower-STR characters, one could simply get Strike, a high BAB, attack focus, damage focus (not in book, but it's the M&M version of Weapon Specialization, where you add a +1 to damage bonus to one type of attack, and you need appr. attack bonus and +4 BAB), etc.

Once again, thanks for sharing your comments.
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Postby Anthony » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:20 am

Strict31 wrote:I think such arguments only go so far because it is a matter of conditioning fast muscle contracors rather than building up strength.


That _is_ strength. It's not the kind of strength you build up through weightlifting, but muscle conditioning does increase strength. Also, the type of muscle that improves damage is also the type of muscle that improves strike speed, because 'damage' with any given weapon is a function of velocity.

For the pure weightlifter type, don't use normal Str, use super-Str with a source of 'training'.
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Postby Strict31 » Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:00 pm

Anthony wrote:
Strict31 wrote:I think such arguments only go so far because it is a matter of conditioning fast muscle contracors rather than building up strength.


That _is_ strength. It's not the kind of strength you build up through weightlifting, but muscle conditioning does increase strength. Also, the type of muscle that improves damage is also the type of muscle that improves strike speed, because 'damage' with any given weapon is a function of velocity.



As you wish. My point is that either viewpoint can be argued and supported logically, and as such, using it as support for a stat in a game is not productive. I have no wish to argue the matter with you, but rather to point out that, as far as I'm concerned, your other points were sufficient and correct.

Of course, Bushido, you're right about the Super-Str, Super Dex bits. I was channeling a blonde on that comment...

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Postby Eletarmion » Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:08 pm

Hi Bushido:

Personally, I agree with you. I think DEX should govern "to hit" bonuses in melee combat. Actually, I've been thinking that since the game was published. The rationalizations for using STR, however, are sufficiently good to keep me from houseruling otherwise, at least for now. If they changed it in a future edition, however, I'd smile with satisfaction.

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Postby palehorse » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:47 pm

I think the 'it'd make DEX too powerful' arguement is a bit too compelling and logical for a change to be made... There are times when you just have to say 'logic, schmogic' and go with what makes the mechanics of the game better.
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Versatility & Limited (Extra & Flaw) on base abiliti

Postby haferka » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:55 pm

Here is my method of eliminating discussions like this... Give people what they want.. (the end result is more versatility with the same PP cost)

Abilities can be purchased with the "Versatility" extra and/or the "Limited" flaw. An ability must grant a bonus of +1 (12+) or greater in order to benifit from these extras/flaws. These can also be applied to the "Super" ability powers as well.

Note: These bonuses follow the standard stacking limitations. So 2 stats that grant +10 attack each only grant +10 attack totall for a PL10 character.

Versatility allows an ability to grant a bonus that would normally be granted from a different.

Limited removes a bonus that would normally be granted from a basic ability.

Example Modifiers: Skill, Attack, Damage, Defence, Initiative...
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