All Weaknesse not created equal?

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All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby Artimus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:13 am

Is it just me or should not all weaknesses be worth a flat out 10pp?

This can be compared to the discussion on Mystique, Nightcrawler, and Beast with Weakness: Distrubing. (Let's assume for this that they WOULD have that weakness) Are you telling me that Mystique's blue-ness is really as bad as Cthulhu?

Secondly, is being blind, deaf, and paralyzed *really* as bad as being Vulerable to 3 elements?

On another note, why couldn't you allow the players to choose how many points that they get (Up to 10) and from that determine how often that you're going to use the weakness against them?

Any ideas on this sort of stuff, a specially the latter?
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Postby Dolphin » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:17 am

I'd let people alter the points cost of a weakness if they could put up a good reason why, but then I'd make sure as the GM that tyhe weakness was played to in realtion to how many bonus points they gained. I think 10pts in a good number, not quite a level but enough to make some serious difference.
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Re: All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby Nightlynx » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:18 am

Artimus wrote:Is it just me or should not all weaknesses be worth a flat out 10pp?

This can be compared to the discussion on Mystique, Nightcrawler, and Beast with Weakness: Distrubing. (Let's assume for this that they WOULD have that weakness) Are you telling me that Mystique's blue-ness is really as bad as Cthulhu?

Secondly, is being blind, deaf, and paralyzed *really* as bad as being Vulerable to 3 elements?

On another note, why couldn't you allow the players to choose how many points that they get (Up to 10) and from that determine how often that you're going to use the weakness against them?

Any ideas on this sort of stuff, a specially the latter?


Well i suppose if you want to write up your own House rules on weakness that would be cool! But for the most part I haven't seen to many weaknesses used in game and the ones that were, were chosen and played very well so it never really became a problem per say. Again its a GM call - what works for you and what works for you players and what allows or the most fun in the game!

peace and good gaming

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Postby Artimus » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:24 am

Here's another one. Take Scott Summers (Cyclops)

I'd say that it would be a weakness that he is a walking laser if he doesn't have his eyes shut/sunglasses/visor on. It's not warrenting of a full 10 points, as it doesn't happen as often as Superman getting attacked by Kryptonite. So for example, as a DM, maybe give a 3 point bonus to them for it?

I agree, I really don't see that many weaknesses either. Just something to think about.
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Postby AaronUnicorn » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:38 am

I think that example may be flawed. I suspect that Scott's dependency on his visor comes into play more often than Clark's vulnerability to Kryptonite, but I see your point.

On the other hand, it's been my experience that most role-players end up playing out weaknesses that they don't get any points for. Among them in my PCs, my shaman is a compulsive trickster, my brick is paranoid about his secret identity, and my semi-brick who is hideously mutated (he did take "Disturbing") is convinced that the Beatles "I am the Walrus" is a prophecy regarding his destiny.

I think the Weaknesses in M&M are a good representative of "Weaknesses that go beyond 'typical' heroic disadvantages" which most super-hero games give you points for, but, from what I can tell, is assumed to be part of the character in M&M.

Now, depending on how you handle Scott, I might not let him take a Weakness for his visor. If I did, he'd have to deal with it fairly often. Probably more often than Superman deals with Kryptonite, since Scott's loss of visor won't kill him, it just makes thing very difficult.
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Postby Tesuji » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:15 am

Here is how i see it.

MnM takes the viewpoint that every character has little problems, the ones you can easily sum up with " I am the main character in a superhero story and so I expect to have stuff happen to me"

Every once in a while your powers are gonna go waonky or you will be put into a situation where your personality causes you to do the wrong thing and so forth.

in HERO, you try and figuere out how many extra dice of Eb you get for being interesting and having a personality.

In MNM weaknesses are for BIG things, huge things, honking wrap-your-character-around-it things like cyclops and his eye beams and clark and his kryptonite.

So the notion of "is three weaknesses this as bad as three weaknesses that" is really a bit off the farm since most characters should be hard pressed to actually survive with as much as two weaknesses, let alone three or more.

As for the individual merits of thr weaknesses... the Gm will tend to control the frequency and severity of each of those by the scripts he writes... so they should, if he does his job well, come out to close enough to govt work.

In truth though I have come to prefer no pain no gain flaw/weakness structure to the loan shark structure, so my recommendation would be to try that if you actually have problems.

In practice, my dissatisfaction with HERo and the player point shenanigans in searching for the cheap flaws that add up to points but never cause problems would lead me to say NO to allowing players to set their own flaw values. MnM isn't really designed to be a precision scalpel in its accoutning, so the huge jumps from 0 to 10 make it easier for me.
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Re: All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby Strand0 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:28 pm

Artimus wrote:Are you telling me that Mystique's blue-ness is really as bad as Cthulhu?
Of course not. It is a power for Cthulhu, not a disadvantage. :)
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Postby Strict31 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:03 pm

I honestly don't see a problem with having a varied cost/benefit for weaknesses. Sure, you'll encounter some problems with players searching for an extra point here and there by taking a pissant one point weakness. But the flip side of that problem is having a handful of 10 pt weaknesses that don't offer much room for variability. Weaknesses could easily vary in severity. The system, as is, doesn't really account for that. Vulnerability to Kryptonite probably isn't the same as vulnerability to Sunlight. I just like having more options, both as a player and a GM. But to each their own.

The beauty of the system is that this sort of thing is truly wide open if you really think about it; it just requires some consumer work to vary severities, costs and that sort of thing.

Bottom line: if you feel an across the board 10 point benefit is too restrictive, then don't hesitate to vary it up to suit your wishes. That's if you're a GM. If you're a player, state your case to your GM as honestly as possible. Maybe he'll surprise you.

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Postby BruteForce » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:57 pm

Artimus wrote:Here's another one. Take Scott Summers (Cyclops)

I'd say that it would be a weakness that he is a walking laser if he doesn't have his eyes shut/sunglasses/visor on. It's not warrenting of a full 10 points, as it doesn't happen as often as Superman getting attacked by Kryptonite.


Actually, I'd just attach a flaw to his Energy Blast and leave it at that...
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Power Flaw

Postby Jerks » Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:47 pm

Remember, not all weaknesses are created equal. In the case of Cyclops I'd say that instead of writing it up like a weakness his energy blast should be given the flaw-uncontrolled w/o visor. This basically gives his power the device flaw...just written up a different way.
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Re: All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby CASE » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:22 am

[quote="Strand0"][quote="Artimus"]Are you telling me that Mystique's blue-ness is really as bad as Cthulhu?[/quote]Of course not. It is a power for Cthulhu, not a disadvantage. :)[/quote]

Doesn't anyone else own a plush Cthulhu? He is just so darn cute.
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Re: All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby Nightlynx » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:37 am

CASE wrote:Doesn't anyone else own a plush Cthulhu? He is just so darn cute.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes mine is wearing one of those awful beach shirts and a hat! A gift from a very close friend who understood that Malibulhu would be a prize possion for me!

peace and good gaming

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Re: All Weaknesse not created equal?

Postby corwyn » Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:39 am

CASE wrote:
Strand0 wrote:
Artimus wrote:Are you telling me that Mystique's blue-ness is really as bad as Cthulhu?
Of course not. It is a power for Cthulhu, not a disadvantage. :)


Doesn't anyone else own a plush Cthulhu? He is just so darn cute.


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Postby corwyn » Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:44 am

Tesuji wrote:Here is how i see it.

in HERO, you try and figuere out how many extra dice of Eb you get for being interesting and having a personality.



While I agree that Hero presents problems like this, it's more because disad points represent such a huge pool of points - around half. I think having varying degrees works in a system like SAS'. The return is small enough that you don't get people nickel and diming the system for one more point. And a 6-10 point defect is about as problematic as an M&M weakness. I plan on importing it mostly as is.
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Postby Jason Starr » Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:27 pm

I fall into the camp that wouldn't have a problem with variable savings for weaknesses. For instance, if someone wanted to play someone who was ugly, I would write it up as the opposite of the Attractive feat and give them 2 points.
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Postby mrobviousjosh » Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:03 am

Yeah, also some of my players/characters would take weaknesses, most notably unlucky, but not to the severe degree that it is. For example, a player wanted a gadgeteer that "on occasion" would blow up his home garage creating something new. That sort of thing, which would constitute a one or two point flaw, whereas completely unlucky is, in my opinion, probably worthy of a level, a full 15 pp. But, when I see it my interpretation makes me shiver. It's so.....unlucky. Lol. :wink:
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