Holy Rusted Metal!

[Sketchpad]

Wow! I just tried to do the Bat ... ended up with a PL48 character!!

[Dr Archeville]

post 'im up!

[Bailywolf]

Jeeze- where did all those points go?

[BeZurKur]

Yeah, post him. I must admit, 48 sounds way too high. Off the top of my head, I'd say he is in between 15-18. I'm sure that collectively we can work him out.

[Bailywolf]

Bats is so subjective, and in may ways defining him requires a lot of caveats- which version? During which period? Which book? You could do a great PL10 versino of him... or just as easily, PL20. It all depends on your benchmarks.

-B

[DrObvious]

Did you include the Batmobile, the Batplane, the Bat... boat, I don't know. What else did he have?

Anyway, I could see him this high if you are going for the real ubermench Batman from JLA. There really was no baddie he couldn't handle, or any problem he couldn't solve.

[Novac]

Bats is so subjective, and in may ways defining him requires a lot of caveats- which version? During which period? Which book? You could do a great PL10 versino of him... or just as easily, PL20. It all depends on your benchmarks.

-B

Show me a PL 10 Batman, that'd make my day. I tried to make a PL 6 Robin and that just didn't happen

[CASE]

I tried to make batman myself and he was around level 30 and still not right. He has almost every normal feat, including infamy for batman and fame for bruce wayne. His BAB should be high around 15 or 20. the same with BDB. How many sidekicks do you give him? What about Wealth feats, Vehicles, His armor? Skills all range around 10 and above. I would like to see your batman and see what you have done.

I am going to try again, but I will use 20 Power points per level instead of 15. it is something my group is trying.

[Bailywolf]

The animated series batman is LUCKY if he's PL10. If you can build a decent superman clone at PL10, building the normal if highly trained guy should be equally easy, yes?

Let me monkey with the numbers, I'll how few points it takes to make a recognizable Batman (assuming a setting on par with that PL of course- its all about scaling).

-B

[Bailywolf]

Don't spend all your points skills- use flawed super-abilities sourced to 'training'. There are several good examples in M&M books of this sort of character. Also, don't think in terms of "should" when building him. He "should" have this or "should" have that. Build a set of stats which let him do- on average- the kinds of things the version of Bats your modeling does typically. Leave the over the top stuff for extra effort and hero points (that is what they are there for).

One of the problems with Batman is that his power is based entirely on the characters which surround him. Superman's powers are fairly well defined- he can lift X amount of weight, or withstand Y amont of explosive force. He still suffers from power creep or sink based on the situation, but the upper limits of his powers are still fairly well benchmarkable.

Bats on the other hand is "the greatest detective in the world" and a "world class martial artist" and whatnot. So he's only good enough at any given time to succede against the current oposition with enough drama to make a intresting story- depending on the book and the writer, he'll have trouble figuring out the Joker's plan in equal measure to figuring out the alien computers on a battlecruiser about to assualt the Earth. Batman is a plot device.

So before arguing about what batman 'should have' you first have to define exactly which version of batman you're trying to model.

-B

[CASE]

"Batman" Comics Version, One word title, using Batman "The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight" Published by DK. I own all there comic book bio books, Superman, Batman, JLA, Xmen, Spiderman. They state, not stat all the offical powers of the characters

[Bailywolf]

I haven't seen those books. How do they rate Bats?

[Mytheos]

He seems more than possible to create at a PL10.
First Bats is a Detective
His skills need to reflect that.

Second Bats uses, well toys. "Where does he get those wonderful toys?"...Joker
If anything, he should have a high Gadget skill. His ability to use psycology and deductive reasoning gives him the edge to create what he needs to over come his advesary. "Know thy Enemy"

At PL10 Bats would have a hideout, the batmobile, and his plane.
I would go so far as to say that the later of these could optionally be purchased with his wealth feat instead of power points. Else there is no point for the wealth or wealth feat.

As a martial artist that are not many that can match the Bats. But not to may criminals in his day used marital arts either. His abilites grew over time, and training. Use feats that would reflect this.

Remember that the Bats has weakness to
He has a strict moral code:
He does not kill
He does what he does for vengence and justice.

While Bats believes in team work, he trusts no one completly.

You could also use optional rules in this character creation:
You could create a feat that would give extra hero points to characters that used no superpowers.
Bats could qualify for additonal skills and feats. He trained for this since he was 8 years old.

But this is just my thoughts, and could account for less than nothin...

[Bailywolf]

But Bats WOULD have super powers (in the rules-sense)- Super-abilities (str, dex, cha, Int, Wis) sourced to Training, flawed to add to skills & saves only, at about the +5 level.

Beyond this, his skills would be in the +1 to +5 range, and his ability scores in the 14 - 18 range.

In M&M Bats has "powers".

-B

[Mytheos]

No I disagree here.

He does not have a super strength. Maybe higher than the average human, Super Strength doubles carrying capacity every level. I dont see bats lifting several thousand pounds.

The most amazing thing about Batman has always been he is a normal guy, with cool toys, and that just plan kicks ass.

He is not a mutant, not in some hyped up cyber armor, or a an alien.
There are no psionics, no magic.

To a normal human he seems super-human. Just as Bruce Lee would. but he is just a man.

[Sketchpad]

Well ... here's the incomplete write-up gang ... I calced the numbers to be around PL 48 ... This is the definitive Batman to me (and yup, it contains the vehicles )

Batman: PL; Init; Defense 9; Spd; Atk 9 melee, ranged; SV Dmg, Fort, Ref, Will; Str 20, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 18.
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Balance +6, Bluff +7, Climb +5, Computers +5, Concentration +5, Craft (Gadget) +5, Craft (Vehicle) +5, Craft (Weapon) +5, Demolitions +3, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +6, Disguise +7, Drive +6, Escape Artist +7, Forgery +6, Gather Information +6, Hide +8, Innuendo +6, Intimidate +9, Jump +5, Knowledge (Gotham City) +8, Knowledge (Gotham Rogues) +8, Knowledge (Known Meta-Humans & Their Weaknesses) +7, Languages (French, German, Latin, Japanese), Listen +8, Medicine +8, Move Silently +8, Open Locks +7, Pilot +6, Read Lips +6, Repair +5, Ride +5, Science (Biology) +6, Science (Chemistry) +6, Science (Physics) +5, Search +8, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +7, Spot +8, Survival +7, Swim +5, Taunt +7
Feats: Accurate Attack, Ambidexterity, Assessment, Attack Focus (Unarmed, Grappling, Batarang), Attractive, Blind-Fight, Chokehold, Contact (Batsquad), Contact (GCPD), Contact (JLA), Dodge, Evasion, Expertise, Far Shot, Great Fortitude, Headquarters (Batcave), Heroic Surge, Hero’s Luck (x5), Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Indomitable Will, Infamy, Instant Stand, Iron Will, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Multishot, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Healing, Rapid Shot, Rapid Strike, Ricochet Attack, Sidekick (Alfred), Startle, Stunning Attack, Takedown Attack, Toughness
Powers: Amazing Save (Dmg) +6 [Extras: Additional Saves (Fort, Ref & Will); Source: Training, 4pp], Combat Sense +6 [Source: Training, 1pp], Mental Protection +3 [Source: Training, 2pp]
Equipment: Batarang +6 [Extras: Autofire, Explosive; Source: Super-Science, 4pp], Costume +8 [Extras: Blending; Stunts: Darkvision, Radio Broadcast, Radio Hearing; Source: Super-Science, 2pp], De-Cel Swingline +6 [Features: Swinging; Flaw: Device; Source: Super-Science, 1pp], Gadgets (Utility Belt) +12 [Source: Super-Science, 1pp]
Vehicles: Batmobile [Size: Medium; Move 8; Hardness 15; Armor Bonus 10; Cost 53pp; Features: Invisibility (Radar) +8; Stunts: Radio Broadcast, Radio Hearing], Batplane [Size: Large; Move 12; Hardness 12; Armor Bonus 10; Cost 54pp; Features: Invisibility (Radar) +8; Stunts: Radio Broadcast, Radio Hearing], Batboat [Size: Medium; Move 7; Hardness 10; Armor Bonus 10; Cost 47pp; Features: Invisibility (Radar) +8; Stunts: Radio Broadcast, Radio Hearing], Batcycle [Size: Medium; Move 7; Hardness 8, Armor Bonus 5; Cost 24pp; Stunts: Radio Broadcast, Radio Hearing]

[Bailywolf]

Check your rules, and look at the updated Raven in Freedom City.

'Training' is a perfectly acceptable power source for powers in M&M- the "super-normal" character like Batman who has no "powers" in the literal sense is still best modeled with super powers in the rules sense. Don't get so hung up on the literal. You simply apply a flaw to Super Strength to remove the carry capacity and feat of strength aspect, but keep the damage mod and skill mod aspect- his awesome martial arts training lets him strike vulnerable spots for more damage, and potentially throw much stronger oponents around (str vs str checks in the rules, and str adds to damage mods & str based skills).

I'm not pulling this out of my ass- the game designers intended the rules to be used this way.

-B

[Bailywolf]

Ouch. Not a very effecient build. Are those skill adds flat or with ability mods added in?

Also, why all the feats? Sure, at one time or another Bats has done just about everything in his 50+ years of comic continuity... but trying to represent it all on one character sheet generates a big mess (at the pl48 level!)

-B

[mrobviousjosh]

I know a lot of people might disagree about the PL48, primarily because they want characters to be "playable" but I am more of a fan of having characters at the level that they are most suited to, comic book wise. I want their true characteristics over playability. And, although 48 *seems* high, it really isn't for the Dark Knight. In this game, with money as fickle as it is, you have to purchase your vehicles as devices with PP. He has all of these at all the same time; therefore, one could deduce that he would have to spend a large amount of PP just on those. They are all armored with weapons and a ton of abilities to say the least. Then there's his training, particularly his detective abilities. Batman is the world's greatest detective and I think that making a "profession detective" roll is just too vague. I mean, he uses sense motive, bluff, search, spot, listen, etc. just to name a few. Putting them all in one skill would be broken and I'd NEVER let a player do it, so why let a character if I'm trying to make him playable, which is why I don't try to make them playable as opposed to staying to character concept. Now, you also have to look at Batman's past accomplishments/training. He has figured out how to single-handedly take out the ENTIRE JLA. That's QUITE an accomplishment and reflects his higher PL. Additionally, he's a stand alone character that doesn't rely on a team or others. One of the few weaknesses this guy would have revolves around "Crime Alley" and even then he's still stout. All in all, I tend to agree with this conversion, regardless of the PL of Raven.

[Sketchpad]

Ouch. Not a very effecient build. Are those skill adds flat or with ability mods added in?

Also, why all the feats? Sure, at one time or another Bats has done just about everything in his 50+ years of comic continuity... but trying to represent it all on one character sheet generates a big mess (at the pl48 level!)

-B

Wasn't looking for efficiency, I was looking to represent the character in the 20+ years that I've read him As far as the feats, you said it ... he's done just about all of them A good example is to look at the The old Ra's Al Ghul storyline, Batman: Year One, Batman: Year Two, Batman: No Man's Land, Bruce Wayne: Murderer & Hush storylines, which show some of the workings of the character IMO

[Bailywolf]

You can ditch much of that in favor of hero points and extra effort- I generally only model the thnigs a character does on a regular basis- his basic core of tricks and moves. You can go nuts plowing through 20 years of comics looking for every thing the character has ever done.

Dr. Strange is my fave comics character- and he's suffered worse than most when it comes to the whimsy of writers- rewrites, reimagingings, story-dependent power level, ignoring continuity, relaunches, and trendy revamps.

Trying to model him is a bitch and a half.

So when I go for the definitive Dr. Strange, I look back to where I judge his mojo to be the most pure and well manifest- about midrun of the Doctor Strange series before the Dr. Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts relaunch- and cast him there.

Pick a point, and model from there. Try to get everything, and you end up with a mess.

-B

[horned god]

Bat man I bet would end up around Pl 14 or 15 or 16. Why? Well he would have or at least you could give him Super-Strength but then the Flaw: Super-Strength for Skills only thus it would cost you only 1pp per point of strength as the ability only applies to strength based skills, and along with Super-Con, Super-Wis, Super-Dex, Super-Cha, and perhaps Super-Int +6 and not all base stats of 20 but at least a 20 strength he'd end up with some nice skill ratings and you would not need to spend a lot on skills other than that.

Put under those super-stats [training] thus they can't be drained nor neutralized as they aren't as much 'super-stats' as they are representative of his high human capacity and skill level, so they represent the same as it says you can do in the book for some characters.

You then give him Gadgets +12, and more than that would be just giving him more cuz you want to I don't think he'd pull off rank 15 stuns and stuff like that, and lots and lots of Hero's Luck. Keep in mind for each hero point he spends he gets 12 ranks of gadgets thus he could split those ranks among various gadgets. You'd keep a list of stuff he might pull out of his 'bat stuff'. You dont make him pay for any of his vehicles as he is an official comic character and should get that stuff for free (benefit of being in the comics), give him Headquarters. He'd have the equivalent of perhaps armor +4 or so, and Dodge, Evasion and a nice base defense and attack (like 8 base for both) and thus would end up with a high Reflex save which function as a very nice damage save along with a nice defense in the upper 20's like say 28 or so with a flat foot like 21 or so.

Seeing as one Gadgets power with like +16 Hero points (ie hero's luck x 16) means he'll have a crap load of gadgets potentially yet doesn't need to buy them until he needs them in the adventure. You might add some amazing save's in there just in case where you think they are needed, and avoid the feats like 'toughness' but he'd have at least 12 or so feats, like point blank shot, rapid shot, rapid strike, precise shot, etc. and since you gave him 8 base attack, improved critical. He'd have 20 strength, 18 dex, 20 con, 18 int, 18 wis, 19 cha. Sure you can give him a 20 in one of those last three but since you gave him super-int and wis he'll have bonuses so its not like he just needs to have a 20. Also you can simply also give him like a +3 Amazing save Willpower. Say he is 18 wis = +4 and +6 wis thus he'd have a +10 that is probably fine but if you want instead of giving him Amazing save give him Iron Will, that is +12 and more than enough I think and keep in mind he could always pull out of his stuff a 12 rank Mental Protection device so its not like he could not somehow get a +24 reducing ability vs Will based powers.

This batman would kick some major butt and he'd have his sidekick, Robin the boy wonder. I don't see him being more than PL 16 Also those might be a bit liberal and until I sat down to actually write him up I would not know. I'd assume that would be my starting place and if I could get him to like PL 14 or 15 I would if it meant shaving off some stuff to get him to a playable level as a Pl 14 or 15 batman is quite playable as a real character yet watch him end up even less than that, and the lower he is the better for play purposes but at some point he'd not be the 'batman' he needs to be so there is probably a low limit of like Pl 13 or so. Raven is Pl 13 and batman should be close to this, as Raven is Batman's twin in MnM so if you look at Raven and he or even she had a 16 Int is it so wrong to give him a 16 especially since you'd then add some super-stats which means he is not simply only with a 16. So look at raven and go from there I think.

Ofcourse you can create someone at any PL you want, if you wanted a PL 10 batman it is possible and so is a PL 48 one. To me though a PL 48 character is completely useless as i'd never personally use it. It would be ok to look over though.

I think part of what you did is stat out and 'buy' each gadgets, just buy gadgets and then lots of hero points that is the first thing and don't sit there and just buy skills especially at the 1:1 ratio if you refuse to buy the super-stat thing like I suggested and the book says is recommended especially the 'super-strength for skills only' thing' not for all characters but those like the batman type where they are beyond the norm yet not truly 'super' in the spiderman sense. That would cut your cost by over 300 pp I bet as buying all that stuff under batman's write up would end up costing you that much if you priced it all individually.

[Gamskee]

Very representative- though, technically, could be made cheaper using the super stats for a more represenatative PL. I figure it really doesn't matter, since you could eyeball him to tell how 'unfair' he may be to a campaign fairly easily.

[Jerks]

I've toyed around with making a lot of marquee characters from the comics as well. My batman stats at 23rd level, and is reasonably effective in all things Batman. Of course, he doesn't have EVERYTHING, but like someone said, "that's what heroic effort is for." The big thing of course are the vehicles. I house-ruled that extra vehicles can be purchased with a power stunt. Afterall, he can't drive the batboat, batwing, batmobile, and bikecycle all at the same time. The Batwing cost a whopping 60 points, so with all four vehicles the total runs him 66 points.
I also used the optional rule that reduces the cost of skill points (2 skill points for 1 character point).

The tough one to build is Martian Manhunter. This cat has way too many powers. In fact, if he was a player in my campaign, I'd probably disallow him because he doesn't really have a good power concept.

[Crackerjack]

You know, I can see a PL 10 batman quite easily. And I mean even JLA Batman. I mean, yes the JLA is prolly well over 10, but I dont see whats so hard about scaling them down a little.
On the reverse, I can also imagine a level 20 batman from "Dark Knight Returns", definetly not JLA batman strength there, but its perfectly doable.
Stats are just stats after all. Dont try to be able to do everything as well as batman, just try do cover his abilities.

He's a trained normal, he has the gadgets power, plenty of skills for combat and detecting, he has standard batarang that he doesnt have to use gadgets for (just stat them as a long rance weapon, since he never runs out, really). A cool hq, and Id say if 10 features isnt enough on it, let them buy the hq feat again to get another half of the character's power level worth in features. As for vehicles... Well for JLA batman, I wouldnt be beyond suggesting the flight power with device flaw, and then when he's in that he can use the weapon (batarang) power, but change the FX to it being the guns on the Batwing. Crude, but effective.