Mighty extra for a mage

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Mighty extra for a mage

Postby Ryan_Singer » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:05 pm

I've been thinking about the mighty extra alot recently. As most of you know, I run a MnM fantasy game online and am looking to start a tabletop one in the bay area. A real issue I have found is that a bow with the mighty extra and a 20STR can do 6L before the character hits PL2, while an eldritch blast, or a fireball can only do up to 1L. A option I am considering is to have a "eldritch power" extra that can be applied to damaging ranged effects that allows the caster to add his INT mod to damage. What do you guys think?
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Postby Teflon Billy » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:14 pm

I would allow it in the situation you describe (providing it was an Extra, and not a stunt)

I also like that it makes INT kind of useful.
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Postby Ryan_Singer » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:18 pm

My fantasy game borrow's from DnD in that it requires an INT of at least 10+PR for arcane spells. WIS for divine, and CHA for psionics. I hate how INT became a useless stat since MnM took away it's primary use (skill points) but didn't give it any other uses to make it worth the points. By requiring spellcasters to pick it up, I reinforce magic as something to be studied.-Ryan
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Postby DKeith2011 » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:23 pm

You just ran into one of the flaws in the M&M system. The lack of ways to boost the damage of ranged attacks.

Melee attacks get your strength mod, but ranged attacks get squat.

My group has taken to applying the Con modifier to ranges attacks that are part of the character (not devices and such). The Wisdom mod is applied if the attack is mental based.

Your extra approach is just as good an option.
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Postby Ryan_Singer » Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:52 pm

refrasing, does anyone have a problem with this extra?-Ryan
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Postby BruteForce » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:57 pm

DKeith2011 wrote:You just ran into one of the flaws in the M&M system. The lack of ways to boost the damage of ranged attacks.

Melee attacks get your strength mod, but ranged attacks get squat.


Actually, I'm not sure this is a "flaw" of the system. From a game-balance point of view, it's nice because it gives a reason to take a power like Strike over one like Energy Blast (in fact, Strike with the Range extra is identical to Energy Blast with a "Mighty" extra like the ones being discussed here, right down to point cost). Ranged attacks have a fundamental advantage over melee attacks anyway: You're not close enough for them to hit you back (unless they've also got a ranged attack, but in that case, you're still both on a level playing field). It's only fair that melee attacks get some sort of boost.

Besides, this pretty much mirrors real life: If you hit someone, how damaging the blow is will partially depend on your strength, along with factors like the weapon you're using (if any), your skill at using the weapon, and sheer luck; If you shoot someone, all the same variables apply, except your strength -- pulling the trigger harder doesn't make the bullet any more damaging. Of course, there are thrown weapons and the composite bows that were obviously the inspiration for the Mighty extra in the first place, but that's why the extra is there.

Getting back to the original topic, I like the idea of being able to add your Intelligence modifer to spell damage, for the reasons already mentioned: Not only does it make sense, it makes Intelligence worthwhile again (for some characters, anyway). So no, I don't have a problem with it.
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Postby Ryan_Singer » Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:20 pm

You want to see something that makes INT powerful? I have been contemplating a feat called "Arcane Fire". It's basically Throwing mastery based on INT instead of DEX. It is a superfeat, must be taken with the Mystical power source, which in my game greatly limits who can take it and it does your INT modifier in L damage and has a 10 feet range increment. Cool, eh?
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Postby barbedwings » Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:07 am

I personally think that the sheer fact that a ranged attack is -ranged- is a signifigant bonus that you pay for by somewhat reduced damage. Giving a ranged character the same attack power as an all out brick who has to get in close to dish it out... seems cheap to me.
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Re: Mighty extra for a mage

Postby mouthymerc » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:30 am

Ryan_Singer wrote:I've been thinking about the mighty extra alot recently. As most of you know, I run a MnM fantasy game online and am looking to start a tabletop one in the bay area. A real issue I have found is that a bow with the mighty extra and a 20STR can do 6L before the character hits PL2, while an eldritch blast, or a fireball can only do up to 1L. A option I am considering is to have a "eldritch power" extra that can be applied to damaging ranged effects that allows the caster to add his INT mod to damage. What do you guys think?


As has already been stated, the fact that it is ranged is a big advantage. In my current D&D game, I play an archer and usually, on average, do less damage than the melee fighters. The upshot is that I usually take less damage due to being at range, so my character has more longevity. Those guys eat up all the healing spells and potions due to being in the thick of it.

As to increasing damage, what about Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Surprise Strike or adding Penetrating Attack to the spell. Granted, someone with a mighty bow has access to these as well, but, they probably just have the bow, whereas the mage has access to Snare, Fatigue, etc. as additional spells. Not to mention all the other spells a mage can have.
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Postby DKeith2011 » Sun Aug 03, 2003 9:44 am

BruteForce wrote:
DKeith2011 wrote:You just ran into one of the flaws in the M&M system. The lack of ways to boost the damage of ranged attacks.

Melee attacks get your strength mod, but ranged attacks get squat.


Actually, I'm not sure this is a "flaw" of the system. From a game-balance point of view, it's nice because it gives a reason to take a power like Strike over one like Energy Blast (in fact, Strike with the Range extra is identical to Energy Blast with a "Mighty" extra like the ones being discussed here, right down to point cost). Ranged attacks have a fundamental advantage over melee attacks anyway: You're not close enough for them to hit you back (unless they've also got a ranged attack, but in that case, you're still both on a level playing field). It's only fair that melee attacks get some sort of boost.

Besides, this pretty much mirrors real life: If you hit someone, how damaging the blow is will partially depend on your strength, along with factors like the weapon you're using (if any), your skill at using the weapon, and sheer luck; If you shoot someone, all the same variables apply, except your strength -- pulling the trigger harder doesn't make the bullet any more damaging. Of course, there are thrown weapons and the composite bows that were obviously the inspiration for the Mighty extra in the first place, but that's why the extra is there.

Getting back to the original topic, I like the idea of being able to add your Intelligence modifer to spell damage, for the reasons already mentioned: Not only does it make sense, it makes Intelligence worthwhile again (for some characters, anyway). So no, I don't have a problem with it.


We may just had different experiences. My group ran into the problem of not being able to damage a target with any of their ranged attack abilities, primarily because of the lack of ways to boost the damage total.

We settled on the Con/Wis mods simply as a means to patch a problem and to keep the logic of the system intact.
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Postby Ironhand » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:12 am

I have to say in the time I've been playing MnM, I've never seen a problem with damaging targets with ranged attacks. True, melee attacks are more powerful due to the strength add, but to my mind the tactical flexibility of a ranged attack more than makes up for that.
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Postby whydirt » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:06 am

Sounds fine by me. I've allowed something similar in my campaign - a feat that works like Attack Finesse, but allows a mage type to use a mental stat in place of Dex to hit with magic attacks.
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Postby slaughterj » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:05 am

DKeith2011 wrote:
BruteForce wrote:
DKeith2011 wrote:You just ran into one of the flaws in the M&M system. The lack of ways to boost the damage of ranged attacks.

Melee attacks get your strength mod, but ranged attacks get squat.


Actually, I'm not sure this is a "flaw" of the system. From a game-balance point of view, it's nice because it gives a reason to take a power like Strike over one like Energy Blast (in fact, Strike with the Range extra is identical to Energy Blast with a "Mighty" extra like the ones being discussed here, right down to point cost). Ranged attacks have a fundamental advantage over melee attacks anyway: You're not close enough for them to hit you back (unless they've also got a ranged attack, but in that case, you're still both on a level playing field). It's only fair that melee attacks get some sort of boost.

Besides, this pretty much mirrors real life: If you hit someone, how damaging the blow is will partially depend on your strength, along with factors like the weapon you're using (if any), your skill at using the weapon, and sheer luck; If you shoot someone, all the same variables apply, except your strength -- pulling the trigger harder doesn't make the bullet any more damaging. Of course, there are thrown weapons and the composite bows that were obviously the inspiration for the Mighty extra in the first place, but that's why the extra is there.

Getting back to the original topic, I like the idea of being able to add your Intelligence modifer to spell damage, for the reasons already mentioned: Not only does it make sense, it makes Intelligence worthwhile again (for some characters, anyway). So no, I don't have a problem with it.


We may just had different experiences. My group ran into the problem of not being able to damage a target with any of their ranged attack abilities, primarily because of the lack of ways to boost the damage total.

We settled on the Con/Wis mods simply as a means to patch a problem and to keep the logic of the system intact.


There are plenty of options, including Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, etc.

By doing what you are doing, you actually are messing with the balance of the system. HtH attacks get the STR damage, but in turn, lack the ranged ability with the attack, that's a tremendous, yet balancing tradeoff. To give ranged attackers the enhanced damage bonus and the ability to hit at range effectively severely penalizes the HtH combatants.
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Postby Simon_Hibbs » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:13 am

slaughterj wrote:By doing what you are doing, you actually are messing with the balance of the system. HtH attacks get the STR damage, but in turn, lack the ranged ability with the attack, that's a tremendous, yet balancing tradeoff. To give ranged attackers the enhanced damage bonus and the ability to hit at range effectively severely penalizes the HtH combatants.


Surely this, and the other comments on the same lines, are missing the point. The poster is comparing two ranged attacks, not a ranged attack to a melee attack. Why can a bow shooter take the Mighty add, while a spell caster can't?

Having said that, I'm not so sure I like the idea of just copying the Mighty add and powering it off INT. The way M&M does things, magicians should be dangerous due to their flexibility, the range of effects and powers they command, and the clever ways they use them.


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Postby Anthony » Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:14 am

Simon_Hibbs wrote:Having said that, I'm not so sure I like the idea of just copying the Mighty add and powering it off INT. The way M&M does things, magicians should be dangerous due to their flexibility, the range of effects and powers they command, and the clever ways they use them.


How about fixing the problem by simply eliminating the Mighty extra? RL bows don't do more damage if wielded by a stronger person, it's just that a stronger person can wield a more powerful bow.

A possible game mechanic would be bumping the damage limit for attack powers other than Strike from PL to PL+x, where x is an appropriate attribute, usually Str or Int. This would allow a level 2 wizard with a 20 int to throw a +7 fireball, assuming he can figure out how to buy all that on 30pp.
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Postby Carnifex » Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:29 am

It might be, that in a standard MnM game, a brick or Mighty blaster can do base of +15, a normal blaster can do +10. So it's only a +50% power difference.

but in a PL 2 game, the difference is +2 vs +7. thats +250% power.

One solution might be to limit higher attributes in a fantasy type game, either by charging more that 1:1, or by saying you attriubtes are limited to PL+10.

so as 2nd level, the difference between mighty and non-mighty is +3 and +2
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Postby slaughterj » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:04 pm

Simon_Hibbs wrote:
slaughterj wrote:By doing what you are doing, you actually are messing with the balance of the system. HtH attacks get the STR damage, but in turn, lack the ranged ability with the attack, that's a tremendous, yet balancing tradeoff. To give ranged attackers the enhanced damage bonus and the ability to hit at range effectively severely penalizes the HtH combatants.


Surely this, and the other comments on the same lines, are missing the point.


I'm not missing the point. I addressed a separate point made by a separate poster. The separate poster's post may be considered a hijack of the thread, but my response was in response to his point, and was directly on point to it. Perhaps you missed the point of my response?

Simon_Hibbs wrote: The poster is comparing two ranged attacks, not a ranged attack to a melee attack.


I understand what the original poster was discussing, and see there is an issue, but I think that's an issue with the system as a whole, that it isn't designed to be scaleable to very low PLs, for the issue stated, and others.
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Postby Strict31 » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:10 pm

Like Mouthymerc and Slaughterj suggested, what's wrong with stuff like Power Attack? Already exists in the book and can be easily applied to a specific power as is. It's what I do.

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Postby mgg » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:18 pm

Extra damage in this system has a linear effect. The advantage from switching to +2 to +7 is nearly identical to the advantage of switching from +10 to +15, whatever the percentage increase, provided one's opponents damage saves are similarly scaled.

There is a loss of effect once the damage overwhelms the target's damage save. So against someone with a +0 damage save, anything above a +16 is meaningless. If the target is a minion with +0 damage save, then I suppose anything above a +6 is meaningless.
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Postby BruteForce » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:39 pm

Anthony wrote:How about fixing the problem by simply eliminating the Mighty extra? RL bows don't do more damage if wielded by a stronger person, it's just that a stronger person can wield a more powerful bow.


I don't know if this is the best way to handle it; you're technically right about bows, but remember that a bow isn't the only thing that the extra can be used for (though it's most people's first thought if they've played D&D; and obviously the "mighty composite bows" there are where the name for the extra came from...).

Just off the top of my head, I'll mention Captain America's shield -- a ranged attack that obviously would be more damaging the more strength were behind it. So I think the extra is warranted (provided, of course, it makes sense -- I wouldn't allow a "mighty" sniper rifle without a real good explanation from the player as to how that one works).
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Postby Carnifex » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:09 am

A random comment, Mighty is tied to ranged Weapon, which can be taken away.

A wizard with a mighty energy blast; unless it's from a magic staff, it can't be taken away.

This might be part of game balance, you can't have a mighty ranged attack unless it also has the item flaw.

I suppose a 5th level mage could do something like this:

Energy blast +5 (Power stunt: (Ranged Weapon (Extra: *Mighty)) cost 10+2 for the stunt.

* or whatever you want to call, add int to damage

this way the extra damage is still tied to an item, which makes it fair to the bow user or hammer thrower
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Postby whydirt » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:40 am

Actually, you can add Mighty to any ranged attack, not just Weapon.
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Postby Carnifex » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:12 am

whydirt wrote:Actually, you can add Mighty to any ranged attack, not just Weapon.


Oh. I thought in the book it was under weapon, my bad.
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Postby whydirt » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:25 am

It is listed under Weapon, but it's also listed in the general Extras section. 8)
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